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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling article

496 replies

DrDreReturns · 16/03/2022 08:56

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
KimikosNightmare · 16/03/2022 23:28

Roll back abortion rights? You're on the wrong side of the Atlantic chum, this is the UK

The UK excluding NI, (where progress is being made started by Stella Creasey's cross- bench campaign which was supported by Tories, including Tory grandees like Andrea Leadsom and Sir Peter Bottomley) has one of the most liberal regimes and longest "on demand" time limits in the world. And for most women free as well.

Pre- Covid women were still travelling from the oh so liberal and progressive Irish Republic to the UK to have abortions.

There isn't any demand for roll back of abortion rights in the UK.

KimikosNightmare · 16/03/2022 23:32

Some comments from someone proud to be a friend of JKR's.

mobile.twitter.com/Rootfish/status/1502391250099466243

Mollyollydolly · 16/03/2022 23:33

Glad you said that - I couldn't be arsed.

Talipesmum · 17/03/2022 00:54

Pretty sure the OP is totally stirring. But anyway, here’s a handy diagram I saw on here years ago. Highlights the key bleeding obvious differences between the GC position, and the right wing position, and why people can be disingenuously implying they’re rooted in the same thing - but clearly aren’t.

JK Rowling article
DomesticatedZombie · 17/03/2022 09:36

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

I used to go to a little sandwich shop that advertised egg mayo sandwiches but they made them with salad cream

BUT THATS NOT EGG MAYO…THE CLUE IS IN THE FUCKING NAME

Trading standards, Citizen's advice, and possibly citizens arrest.
SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 17/03/2022 09:46

OK, Rufus, I'm with you on the egg mayo (although I sometimes use yoghurt to reduce salt content for my toddler BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE). But the question is, can we campaign together on that, while knowing we have such a deep ideological divide in other areas? Confused

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 17/03/2022 09:52

God I don’t know selfportrait

You’re right it is a deep ideological divide, it may well be impassable 😟

(And zombie is right as well…i should have made a citizens arrest for the safety of everyone, but its too late 😩)

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 17/03/2022 09:53

Do you know….

I’d really like to say that anyone who likes egg mayo is ok by me but I’m fairly positive that if i do someone will point out that hitler, or putin or pol pot liked egg mayo too and then I’ll be exactly the same as a dictator 🤔

So I’m not gonna say it

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 10:17

@Talipesmum

Pretty sure the OP is totally stirring. But anyway, here’s a handy diagram I saw on here years ago. Highlights the key bleeding obvious differences between the GC position, and the right wing position, and why people can be disingenuously implying they’re rooted in the same thing - but clearly aren’t.
Where do I fit in?
  • Gender can be oppressive
  • Gender can be celebrated
  • 100% accept gender variation
  • Gender is a social construct
  • Some sexed characteristics are changeable and some are not (yet)
Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 10:31

Why do you need someone to give you a label and a box to be in? Confused

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 10:45

@Artichokeleaves

Why do you need someone to give you a label and a box to be in? Confused
The rhetorical question was there to demonstrate that your diagram either doesn't capture every position, or misrepresents the views of those arguing for trans rights.
Epli · 17/03/2022 10:55

@ElaineFuchs

I find it very concerning that the gender critical movement is so closely aligned with people wishing to roll back abortion rights, promote misogynistic viewpoints and homophobia.

I don't think that every GC believes in this things of course, but there is a worrying overlap.

(full disclaimer, I am not GC)

You seem to be conveniently unaware of the fact that in the UK a lot of people on GC side are actually gay. Do you think they are homophobic as well?
ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 10:55

@DomesticatedZombie

lots of GCs would be very upset to think they are working to uphold the patriarchy, which we should all all be fighting together to dismantle

No desire to 'work with' anyone trying to gaslight, smear, and impugn women, thanks.

No doubt you'll voice your principles on the Matt Walsh thread, and let JKR know how upset you are at her promoting Caroline Farrow!
ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 11:02

"You seem to be conveniently unaware of the fact that in the UK a lot of people on GC side are actually gay. Do you think they are homophobic as well? "

Firstly, I think it's a loud minority. Look at the turnout of gay people one sees at trans-inclusive pride marches, compared to trans exclusionary events.

Its possible to be transphobic without being homophobic, this accounts for some.

I think what covers the most part is the realisation that it's not just some strict binary of "you're homophobic or you're not". These people are definitely exhibiting some homophobic actions (for example telling other gay people that they are not homosexual because they date trans people).

One can be homophobic and gay at the same time. There are also transphobic trans people and misogynistic women.

What do you think about all the women who fought against women's suffrage?

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 11:21

The rhetorical question was there to demonstrate that your diagram either doesn't capture every position, or misrepresents the views of those arguing for trans rights.

It wasn't my diagram, and why does it need to capture 'every position'? Confused

Talipesmum · 17/03/2022 11:24
  • Where do I fit in?
  • Gender can be oppressive
  • Gender can be celebrated
  • 100% accept gender variation
  • Gender is a social construct
  • Some sexed characteristics are changeable and some are not (yet)*

Looks like you’re mostly in the top box. Of course sexual characteristics can be changed - but that’s not changing the sex you are. It’s not going to affect your gametes. And I can enjoy my gender, some of the time, while also being aware that it can be oppressive, and absolutely being aware that it is largely constructed.

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 11:26

I'm a homosexual female. I don't go to Pride or any groups any more because they're openly anti homosexual females and I encounter a lot of homophobia that lesbians are people of either sex who may or may not have exclusive sexual preferences for one/both/multiple sexes. Which is obvious nonsense because the word 'lesbian' means homosexual (sex, biological) female.

Otherwise what's the point of having the word at all.

Anyone insisting that a woman should be called names for exerting her right to have a sexuality that excludes male people from her body, has a real problem with women, women's rights and homosexuality.

And as for the whole 'lesbians should learn to cope with sex with male bodied people for political reasons' ala Rachel Mckinnon who came out with that gem?? Sex is a social duty for females to provide for males without expectation of enjoyment or reciprocation is it?

Call me what ever names you feel like. I've got no problem working out what I think of people who treat women and homosexual women in this way. And I wouldn't want to be spending any time around them.

Which makes it very difficult to know exactly how many homosexuals are now no longer anywhere to be seen at Pride and groups because they've been colonised and taken over by a particular political position that is exclusionary and aggressively hostile/intolerant of them. Rather like how many females are now without any resources so that male people can have absolute freedom in selecting from all the resources.

Morally this isn't too shiny is it? Not kind. Not inclusive.

NecessaryScene · 17/03/2022 11:30

These people are definitely exhibiting some homophobic actions (for example telling other gay people that they are not homosexual because they date trans people).

So like being sexist by telling a man he's not a woman? Or being racist for telling a white person he's not black? Or being anti-vegan for telling a meat-eater he's not a vegan? Confused

I'm not anti-dog if I say your cat is not a dog.

You're not anti-feminist when you point out your Matt Walsh chap is not a feminist.

Sorry, words have meanings. You don't just get to counter by saying someone is "anti-X" when they point out that something/someone is "not X".

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 11:32

Really, anyone telling me that I need to learn to provide male people with sex I don't want and don't enjoy because it's a social duty that's apparently a birthright of biological females (but sex isn't a thing), is not going to like the answer they get.

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 11:34

The rhetorical question was there to demonstrate that your diagram either doesn't capture every position, or misrepresents the views of those arguing for trans rights.

At least you've admitted that you are arguing for trans rights and are not remotely interested in women's rights despite your faux posts pretending to be.

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 11:34

@Talipesmum

* Where do I fit in?
  • Gender can be oppressive
  • Gender can be celebrated
  • 100% accept gender variation
  • Gender is a social construct
  • Some sexed characteristics are changeable and some are not (yet)*

Looks like you’re mostly in the top box. Of course sexual characteristics can be changed - but that’s not changing the sex you are. It’s not going to affect your gametes. And I can enjoy my gender, some of the time, while also being aware that it can be oppressive, and absolutely being aware that it is largely constructed.

I'm pleased to be associated with the "Feminism" label as I very much believe in the cause.

I wouldn't agree though that one's gender is a product of one's gametes though (although for most people, their gender will match their gametes! I wouldn't deny that!).

Some people are born infertile: they make no gametes, however still have a gender! So although it's correlated with gametes, it's not caused by them!

Some people stop producing gametes during their life, either through menopause, medical intervention, illness or something else. Yet they retain their gender, so again, it must be something aside from gamete production.

This one is a thought experiment, so it's obviously not real (yet) but the argument is still valid in principle: imagine the transplant of a female reproductive system into a man. His gender wouldn't change just because of this, in fact in this hypothetical scenario he may even retain the ability to make sperm.

I hope that this demonstrates that although gametes (of those who produce them) match gender in 99% of people, they are not the cause of one's gender.

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 11:40

I'm pleased to be associated with the "Feminism" label as I very much believe in the cause.

What cause?

No really interested in theories and science fiction about possible causes of why some people feel they have a gender. I don't. My issue is that female rights, access and equality is seriously threatened and female people are being excluded from resources and facilities and services they need because male people wish to use female facilities at will. And don't appear to be able to care or understand about how this impacts on females. If there were additional spaces or solutions for this that meant it worked for everyone, and that everyone's feelings, needs, language and choice of self definition had equal respect, that would be the end of my problem.

Not sure how anyone can be interested in 'feminism' and not have a problem with that.

NecessaryScene · 17/03/2022 11:43

Some people are born infertile: they make no gametes, however still have a gender! So although it's correlated with gametes, it's not caused by them!

You mean "sex" all the way through this?

And the causation is the other way around - the gametes are caused by the sex. Therefore if you're producing sperm, you must be male.

There are two forms of an organism, one produces the small motile gametes, the other the large immobile ones, and those are designated the male and female forms respectively.

This one is a thought experiment, so it's obviously not real (yet) but the argument is still valid in principle: imagine the transplant of a female reproductive system into a man. His gender wouldn't change just because of this, in fact in this hypothetical scenario he may even retain the ability to make sperm.

I assume you mean "sex" here too? Reproductively he would be both male and female.

Although at that technological point you'd have to draw the distinction between natal sex and current reproductive sex.

What we normally care about is phenotype, not reproductive ability. It's the actual physical and behavioural characteristics than normally matter, not the gametes that were used to identify the two phenotypes as male and female.

An inserted uterus (from some poor woman) isn't going to make a man eligible for women's prison or women's sport, any more than any other body parts in his pocket.

A man with surgically removed male bits or inserted female bits is still a modified male type of human.

We don't have the ability to turn a man into a woman any more than we can turn a cat into a dog.

DomesticatedZombie · 17/03/2022 11:44

@RufustheFloralmissingreindeer

Do you know….

I’d really like to say that anyone who likes egg mayo is ok by me but I’m fairly positive that if i do someone will point out that hitler, or putin or pol pot liked egg mayo too and then I’ll be exactly the same as a dictator 🤔

So I’m not gonna say it

probably best avoided. I mean, Hitler was a vegetarian - has someone alerted the Vegan Society? They may as well disband and all members surrender themselves to the gulag.
DomesticatedZombie · 17/03/2022 11:49

We don't have the ability to turn a man into a woman any more than we can turn a cat into a dog.

True. But HAVE YOU SEEN THIS?!

JK Rowling article