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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling article

496 replies

DrDreReturns · 16/03/2022 08:56

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
NitroNine · 23/03/2022 07:13

Worth noting all articles come from the same Journal, which is more WPATH’s newsletter than anything else. Which is probably part of why they don’t get cited in papers published by reputable Journals.

Doubtless people who teach Queer Studies* have used/would use them for the Ref; but even in the current climate you’d be mad to [have] do[ne] that in the Sciences. If you were absolutely set on specialising in trans healthcare you might be ok I suppose, but only if you had REALLY strong publications for your other submissions.

They’ve got a surprisingly low acceptance rate for what they are - not only do they publish WPATH’s position statements, but reviews & letters as well as research across not just multiple fields of medicine but Law, Public Health, Sociology & Medical Ethics too. Basically they’ll publish anything - that fits the ideology of the editorial board, it’s not a Journal for dissent, or, you know, normal academic functions - vaguely to do with trans health.

However, (for those of you unfamiliar with how this particular game is played) their acceptance rate in their specific circumstances basically means that they’re publishing the best of the research, reviews & letters they receive that align with the ideological stance of the Editorial Board & WPATH (plus the occasional pronouncement from WPATH itself, coverage of which should increase their acceptance rate ). Shamefully poor practice in both academia & healthcare - & in unshocking news, Tavistock staff are involved. Moreover, imagine what they’re rejecting when they published “yeah, plug & play uteruses will totally be a thing soon” 🤦🏻‍♀️ Who on Earth were the peer reviewers? At least one of them should have been a gynaecologist, but the state of the article suggests not.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, one of the editorial board is someone who [in]famously advocates for legislation behind closed doors, use of false teaming, & importance of being able to present these fait accompli to thwart opposition. Propaganda production is assuredly in their wheelhouse.

  • As a side note, Goldsmiths offering an MA in “Queer History” is so deeply DEEPLY offensive it’s almost a bad joke. I don’t understand how we’re all meant to be fine with the equivalent of calling an MA in black history [the uncensored version of] N-word History. The rainbow-hair don’t-care gang’s bold “reclamation” of a slur they never experienced being used against them is quite astonishing - & all the more so when it’s known that using it causes distress to a great many people, including gay men whose sexuality was criminalised; & people whose experience of “literal violence” is, in fact, the literal violence of a so-called “Queer Bashing”.
Helleofabore · 23/03/2022 07:37

PurgatoryOfPotholes

Yes, Purgatory. The breezy attitude of the poster who doesn’t even stop to think when women point all this out is easily recognisable. In fact I have come across it on MN before, and one of those posters used exactly the same links.

And the same breezy phrase, ‘I would trust these people over you’. Hmm was used to minimise the same discussion points as well.

Well, if you are transitioned male and want this to happened so badly, I guess women telling you the truth will be difficult to hear.

It brings to mind that for at least 4-5 years (me, at least 2 1/2) we on this board have been saying… there is a different issue going on with our girls and this treatment plan is immensely harmful, and stop! Lupron is so bad on female bodies…. All told to STFU and that we are bigots and haters (all strangely similar) and then comes the Cass interim report…

I am sure posters don’t realise how misogynistic they come across denigrating women pointing out things they don’t want to hear. But there really is a complete disconnect on this particular issue, isn’t there?

The denial - no transitioned male has an abortion fantasy. I post a tweet complete with a love heart about how one day a transitioned male will have an abortion. No… that doesn’t say what you think, we are told. While that poster doesn’t look any further at social media where there most certainly groups having these discussions. But, I am then told how hateful and bigoted it is to mention it.

Then, we point out that cruelly some researchers and heavily invested people are letting these males believe this is going to happen and soon. And that pregnancy requires more than just a ‘bag’ or a uterus implant.

But of course, we are the ones who are wrong. Because some posters cannot connect the points of data with missing information. They would rather accept a researcher’s or a plastic surgeon’s word that pregnancy is possible than actually listen to someone with a depth of understanding through experiencing actual pregnancy.

While missing the point that also, these plastic surgeons have been doing many different everyday and ethical operations now for decades and decades and still those operations either fail or have poor success rates. Just because a plastic surgeon says ‘it is possible’ doesn’t make it really happen in any usable form. It just means they are ready and willing to give it a go. Ethics? Nah… don’t worry about them …

And by the way, even attaching an implanted vagina into a male won’t mean it acts in the way it would in a female. Because how does a male body have the programming to produce what is needed for self lubrication and self cleaning??? Sure a male will have an implanted vagina… so what, it requires a complete system of programming to make that vagina act as a vagina in a female does. Like a uterus is not a bag with veins and arteries connected, a vagina is not a ‘tube’. You can plug it in…. But it won’t play.

These researchers and plastic surgeons are offering dreams. While meanwhile all those telling us how it is happening and soon, forget there is another entity in all this. Just like surrogacy.

That is the life of the embryo that becomes the infant.

(But don’t mention it or you will be called a pro-lifer, as well as a ‘right wing’, hateful, bigot, conspiracy theorist )

They always forget that using someone’s life in this way to validate your needs is repugnant. And currently ethics boards, not just right wing, hateful, bigoted pro-life conspiracy theorist women on MN, say you cannot use human embryos in this way.

But yeah, we are the bigots for pointing out just how repugnant it is to use animals and human embryos for these experiments.

To these posters animals or human embryos or women’s bodies don’t register as being utilised and commodified in this way. And some of them wish to convince us they are feminists!

It really defeats me sometimes that disconnect.

Helleofabore · 23/03/2022 07:41

Thanks Nitro, you were far more concise and articulate than me.

Somanysocks · 23/03/2022 09:02

I'm still waiting for an answer to what the process of being incorrectly assigned at birth is.

DomesticatedZombie · 23/03/2022 09:40

Nitro, thank you, that's really helpful to a non-academic.

I did click on one paper's 'citations' link and was a bit surprised that it had not been cited anywhere at all. Seemed unusual to me, but perhaps not, give what you've just been explaining.

Beowulfa · 23/03/2022 10:17

In fact, what happened to the adult rats who were sewn together at the end of this? Were they separated again, or euthanized?

Don't worry- the rats got to bring their whole self to work.

I'm currently reading Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez. Sickening descriptions of the casual mass slaughter of polar wildlife by European visitors. The writer puts this down to the unenlightened attitudes of past colonial times. Obviously we are so much more evolved now.

VestofAbsurdity · 23/03/2022 11:08

@ScrollingLeaves

I see that that so called male/trans woman rat pregnancy was nothing of the sort. The pregnancy depended entirely on the poor attached female rat.

What a nasty experiment.

And to then want to repeat it in primates and humans is utterly vile, this is Mengele territory so anyone cheering this on like you ElaineFuchs that is what you are on board with and you have the brass neck to try and tie GC views with the far right - as I said earlier take the plank out of your own eye.
Helleofabore · 23/03/2022 11:17

Just to highlight the very nature of transitioned males who are heavily advocating for these experiments on humans and animal. The reckless disregard these males hold for the infants being commoditised for some else's needs is very clear in this comment from a poster just 12 months ago.

"Hopefully womb transplants for trans women will be a thing soon, cos it'll be so much fun watching bigots imploding when a trans woman offers to be a surrogate for a gay couple."

So... just to be clear. I don't have any issue with gay couples adopting a child. I do have issues with children being commoditised and deliberately created to order when they are effectively incubated in a host's body and not their mother's body. And adoption is an entirely different scenario... just so Fuchs can get the next label they which to fling at me correct.

But this poster (and this was just one of their posters around such things) is clearly wishing for humans to be treated like experimental tissue to achieve this aim. And absolutely no consideration is given to any of those humans (or animals) to get to achieve this point.

Eyes on the prize. Nothing else is to be considered. Just a male's wish to be 'pregnant'.

Absolutely oblivious of the ethics of getting to that point, because as Fuchs says 'Prohibiting this would violate trans women's right to gestate.

Because language has been allowed to 'shift' males can be called women and therefore assume the right to 'gestate'???

But there we have it 'PROHIBITING THE EXPERIMENTATION ON HUMAN FOETUSES (and animals) WOULD VIOLATE TRANSITIONED MALE'S RIGHT TO GESTATE'.

Helleofabore · 23/03/2022 11:20

Does anyone have a 'right to gestate'?

Here is a law experts views from 2017.

academic.oup.com/jlb/article/4/3/630/4595563

Even this law expert acknowledges what we are saying here.

The case of a transgender woman desiring a uterus transplant so she could have the woman-specific experience of gestation is also weak. The medical and technical hurdles to enable her to overcome her phenotypic male anatomy and accommodate a functioning uterus might simply be too high.

and

These speculations offer interesting thought experiments which deconstruct the nature and implications of male and female genotypes beyond that which sex reassignment itself has already done. Interesting thought experiments, however, should not affect policy and justice in more realistic settings.

VestofAbsurdity · 23/03/2022 11:55

Validation, validation, validation, and fuck anyone else, fuck ethics, fuck morals, fuck those animals and humans being experimented on Helleofabore.

nepeta · 23/03/2022 13:22

Elaine Fuchs:

"I think I disagree on a couple of points here:

Broadly, I view feminism as a movement against patriarchal power structures. Women aren't the only group harmed by this, people of all genders suffer from the patriarchy. For example men can be bound to gender roles too, and suffer from toxic expectations of masculinity. I would say in one way or another, everyone is a victim of the patriarchy (or course not all in the same way, or to the same degree).

I think this is a key tenet of intersectional feminism."

I disagree with this. The major criterion the so-called patriarchy uses is based on biological sex or perceived biological sex. Biologically female people have historically been oppressed in laws, in religious tenets, and in everyday life. Pornography cannibalises the biologically female body, the Catholic Church bans biological females from priesthood, and in the past it was biological women who were not allowed in universities or in many occupations and whose inheritance rights and property rights were severely curtailed. The regulations were based on biological sex, i.e., belonging to the sex which typically produces ova during certain life stages. It was biological women who were banned from voting, not trans women, and so on. Even today sex-based oppression on the global level has the largest number of victims.

To me intersectional feminism is crucial, but it stops being feminism if the intersections one analyses don't have the "belonging to the female sex" in it. Then it is some other social justice movement. As an aside, it is astonishing how intersectionality is never demanded from any other social justice movement, only from feminism.

Elaine Fuchs:

"In terms of fighting for women's rights in particular, I think that trans women can and should be allies here because of a great shared purpose. Not every cause in the women's rights umbrella even affects every cisgender woman. Consider the crucial fight for bodily autonomy when it comes to abortion rights. This doesn't directly affect cis women who can't become pregnant, but this shouldn't stop them being included in feminist movements, and it doesn't lessen the word "woman" to include them."

I agree that trans women who are seen as female by others will also experience sexism and misogyny, and in that sense they can share in the same battle. On the rest of your statement: Being biologically female is a necessary condition for someone needing an abortion. It is not a sufficient condition, and no female person is fertile all through their lives.

The 'necessary' part there matters greatly. It is the reason why all young women are viewed as potentially expensive employees, because they look as if they might be capable of pregnancy and so might drop out of labour force temporarily or permanently. In other words, if others see you as biologically female, you are going to be treated as a representative of that group by sexists and misogynists.

If we erase biological sex here and pursue the current gender ideology approach to focusing on sex-based oppression (i.e., where in each separate case we talk about the 'people' experiencing something like menstruation, pregnancy, giving birth and menopause), we will lose sight of the crucial intersectional fact that all those people are, in fact, largely the same group. That is because we are erasing all names for that large group, the one which suffers from sex-based ill-treatment.

We are also going to have tremendous difficulty in addressing rape which is largely done by people who have penises (though only by a minority of them) and now not by the identity group 'men' to people who have vulvas (though not to all of them) and now not to the identity group 'women'.

Elaine Fuchs:

"I think the specific point you were arguing against was that by making activism more specific (for example advocating for "people who can become pregnant", or "people who menstruate") it would detach it from the word "woman" and make it less effective by virtue of not being attached to the victims, namely women (please correct me if I've misinterpreted you). I suppose the issue is that by using "women" here, we're already including too many people (for example women who can't get pregnant, or women who don't menstruate) and excluding some (trans men and non-binary people who can get pregnant and menstruate). The inclusive language is actually more accurately naming the victims. (There are some subtle points about making sure that the language used is inclusive as well as understandable to the most people, but this is probably a case-by-case issue). Having said that, I would personally still include these specific issues under the broad umbrella of women's rights."

What you are saying here follows once we strip the old meaning form the words 'women' and 'girls' and view them as pure abstract gender identities.

But I would argue that the vast majority of people do NOT view their own gender in those terms (though trans people probably do).

Rather, they base their gender ON their biological sex (and not necessarily as an identity but rather as a fact). For all those people, the new usage of turning the female body into a gender-neutral one (but not the male body, for some mysterious reason, as that is still men's body) is extremely invalidating and a form of erasure.

Elaine Fuchs:

"As for your feelings of gender identity (from another post), it's absolutely not my place to argue that you do feel one and I wouldn't dream of that. The flip side is that I think we have to take trans people at their word here, I believe who they say they are, and that transitioning affects their lives in a substantial and positive way."

I feel great agony over this, because it has come about by mixing together two definitional systems:

The old sex-based one and the new identity-based one. We cannot combine them the way that is being done today, because many women would argue that they are women because their bodies re female, but some people who have female bodies argue that they are not women because they do not feel like women.

The concept of inclusiveness in the new gender ideology is then applied to let the latter group's feelings determine what the overall group of female people is called. This excludes the gender definitions of millions of women. One could equally well have argued the reverse, i.e., that the concept of inclusiveness requires that the group of female-bodied people should be called women.

The contradiction in this cannot be solved. It could have been easily solved by creating new terms for gender identity and by leaving the old terms alone as referring to biological sex. But this did not happen.

So now every single female person is told that they are women on some other basis than their biological sex, but nobody is willing to give a definition of this new concept verifiable to others that wouldn't be openly sexists and retrogressive.

VestofAbsurdity · 23/03/2022 13:37

So now every single female person is told that they are women on some other basis than their biological sex, but nobody is willing to give a definition of this new concept verifiable to others that wouldn't be openly sexists and retrogressive

The reason they are unwilling to define it is because it is sexist, misogynistic and regressive, they know it, we know it, everybody knows it.

Helleofabore · 23/03/2022 14:03

I imagine it has to do with long hair and make up as we are told.

Because posters cannot accept negative sexist discrimination happened because of female sexed bodies.

Because I suspect those posters have never been asked ‘are you planning to have a family’ in any job interview. Or simply been passed over for promotion because you were a female in a steady relationship of a child bearing age.

It is like posting about implanted uteruses when you have no fucking idea how female bodies work in pregnancy.

NitroNine · 23/03/2022 14:12

I think we just provided nicely complementary posts Helleofabore (& get me being concise )

You are very welcome Zombie - I realised that posters might have questions about how good/reputable the Journal is, and that it isn’t necessarily obvious. Their acceptance rate (15%) really is staggeringly low. “The Lancet” have an acceptance rate of 5% because they can demand absolute excellence & everyone wants to be published there. “The Lancet Oncology” have an acceptance rate of 33% - same level of excellence required, but obviously fewer submissions received because it’s discipline-specific. I know I’m repeating my earlier post, but we’ve seen they’re not demanding excellence; submissions can come from almost any discipline as long as it can be linked to trans health[care]; & the Journal is used as a means for WPATH to speak unto the masses.

ElaineFuchs · 24/03/2022 01:37

@nepeta

Elaine Fuchs:

"I think I disagree on a couple of points here:

Broadly, I view feminism as a movement against patriarchal power structures. Women aren't the only group harmed by this, people of all genders suffer from the patriarchy. For example men can be bound to gender roles too, and suffer from toxic expectations of masculinity. I would say in one way or another, everyone is a victim of the patriarchy (or course not all in the same way, or to the same degree).

I think this is a key tenet of intersectional feminism."

I disagree with this. The major criterion the so-called patriarchy uses is based on biological sex or perceived biological sex. Biologically female people have historically been oppressed in laws, in religious tenets, and in everyday life. Pornography cannibalises the biologically female body, the Catholic Church bans biological females from priesthood, and in the past it was biological women who were not allowed in universities or in many occupations and whose inheritance rights and property rights were severely curtailed. The regulations were based on biological sex, i.e., belonging to the sex which typically produces ova during certain life stages. It was biological women who were banned from voting, not trans women, and so on. Even today sex-based oppression on the global level has the largest number of victims.

To me intersectional feminism is crucial, but it stops being feminism if the intersections one analyses don't have the "belonging to the female sex" in it. Then it is some other social justice movement. As an aside, it is astonishing how intersectionality is never demanded from any other social justice movement, only from feminism.

Elaine Fuchs:

"In terms of fighting for women's rights in particular, I think that trans women can and should be allies here because of a great shared purpose. Not every cause in the women's rights umbrella even affects every cisgender woman. Consider the crucial fight for bodily autonomy when it comes to abortion rights. This doesn't directly affect cis women who can't become pregnant, but this shouldn't stop them being included in feminist movements, and it doesn't lessen the word "woman" to include them."

I agree that trans women who are seen as female by others will also experience sexism and misogyny, and in that sense they can share in the same battle. On the rest of your statement: Being biologically female is a necessary condition for someone needing an abortion. It is not a sufficient condition, and no female person is fertile all through their lives.

The 'necessary' part there matters greatly. It is the reason why all young women are viewed as potentially expensive employees, because they look as if they might be capable of pregnancy and so might drop out of labour force temporarily or permanently. In other words, if others see you as biologically female, you are going to be treated as a representative of that group by sexists and misogynists.

If we erase biological sex here and pursue the current gender ideology approach to focusing on sex-based oppression (i.e., where in each separate case we talk about the 'people' experiencing something like menstruation, pregnancy, giving birth and menopause), we will lose sight of the crucial intersectional fact that all those people are, in fact, largely the same group. That is because we are erasing all names for that large group, the one which suffers from sex-based ill-treatment.

We are also going to have tremendous difficulty in addressing rape which is largely done by people who have penises (though only by a minority of them) and now not by the identity group 'men' to people who have vulvas (though not to all of them) and now not to the identity group 'women'.

Elaine Fuchs:

"I think the specific point you were arguing against was that by making activism more specific (for example advocating for "people who can become pregnant", or "people who menstruate") it would detach it from the word "woman" and make it less effective by virtue of not being attached to the victims, namely women (please correct me if I've misinterpreted you). I suppose the issue is that by using "women" here, we're already including too many people (for example women who can't get pregnant, or women who don't menstruate) and excluding some (trans men and non-binary people who can get pregnant and menstruate). The inclusive language is actually more accurately naming the victims. (There are some subtle points about making sure that the language used is inclusive as well as understandable to the most people, but this is probably a case-by-case issue). Having said that, I would personally still include these specific issues under the broad umbrella of women's rights."

What you are saying here follows once we strip the old meaning form the words 'women' and 'girls' and view them as pure abstract gender identities.

But I would argue that the vast majority of people do NOT view their own gender in those terms (though trans people probably do).

Rather, they base their gender ON their biological sex (and not necessarily as an identity but rather as a fact). For all those people, the new usage of turning the female body into a gender-neutral one (but not the male body, for some mysterious reason, as that is still men's body) is extremely invalidating and a form of erasure.

Elaine Fuchs:

"As for your feelings of gender identity (from another post), it's absolutely not my place to argue that you do feel one and I wouldn't dream of that. The flip side is that I think we have to take trans people at their word here, I believe who they say they are, and that transitioning affects their lives in a substantial and positive way."

I feel great agony over this, because it has come about by mixing together two definitional systems:

The old sex-based one and the new identity-based one. We cannot combine them the way that is being done today, because many women would argue that they are women because their bodies re female, but some people who have female bodies argue that they are not women because they do not feel like women.

The concept of inclusiveness in the new gender ideology is then applied to let the latter group's feelings determine what the overall group of female people is called. This excludes the gender definitions of millions of women. One could equally well have argued the reverse, i.e., that the concept of inclusiveness requires that the group of female-bodied people should be called women.

The contradiction in this cannot be solved. It could have been easily solved by creating new terms for gender identity and by leaving the old terms alone as referring to biological sex. But this did not happen.

So now every single female person is told that they are women on some other basis than their biological sex, but nobody is willing to give a definition of this new concept verifiable to others that wouldn't be openly sexists and retrogressive.

Thank you for the thoughtful, thorough and calm reply, @nepeta.

I only have time for a short reply myself, apologies for that.

The two points which stood out most:

The term "biological woman/female". For many intents and purposes, trans women who are undergoing/have undergone a medical transition are in many ways biological women (although not all). So the phrase biological woman carries some ambiguity (I think it's transphobic too, as it suggests there is a correct biology to be a woman, imagine if I suggested that only fertile women were biological women for example).

Overall, and I think this is the main point though, you underestimate the degree of shared misogyny that trans women and cis women share. You do accept that trans women can experience sexism and misogyny, but they are still unwelcome, what degree of misogyny does a trans woman have to face before she is allowed the title of woman? Do all cis women exceed this?

I kinda disagree that the group women should be defined or gatekept by its place in a patriarchal society. And I disagree that misogyny is because of biological differences. That sounds like it could lead to a path of justifying misogyny, in the same way that "race realists" might say that there are important, immutable differences between races, and use this as a springboard for discrimination. To be clear, I think that there are important differences between these examples, but just something to be aware of.

Note that as a whole, I am not denying that biological differences are the root historical causes of misogyny and oppression of women, that's undeniable. Biology itself can't be the cause, because then infertile women wouldn't suffer from many forms of reproductive oppression, strong women wouldn't be expected to not lift heavy things etc... How do you explain that infertile cis women suffer from reproduction based oppression but trans women don't just as much?

Thank you again for your time responding.

SamphiretheStickerist · 24/03/2022 07:54

For many intents and purposes, trans women who are undergoing/have undergone a medical transition are in many ways biological women (although not all).

When you get a spare moment @ElaineFuchs, could you tell me what any one of those "many ways" is?

Just one!

Thank you.

334bu · 24/03/2022 08:07

How do you explain that infertile cis women suffer from reproduction based oppression but trans women don't just as much?

I'd like to understand how males who identify as women ever suffer female reproduction based oppression. No boy child ever suffers FGM to ensure that, in the future, a man can be sure that he is the father of his children. No male who identified as a women will have his bodily autonomy restricted by punitive abortion laws . No male who identifies as a woman will have their job prospects impacted by their possible future decisions regarding reproduction.

NecessaryScene · 24/03/2022 08:17

Note that as a whole, I am not denying that biological differences are the root historical causes of misogyny and oppression of women, that's undeniable. Biology itself can't be the cause, because then infertile women wouldn't suffer from many forms of reproductive oppression, strong women wouldn't be expected to not lift heavy things etc...

I can see why Jane Clare Jones gets so frustrated. I can't really believe that this isn't being grasped, and isn't just faux ignorance.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1145003337689063424
twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1221724669532934145
twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1221736972470956035

How do you explain that infertile cis women suffer from reproduction based oppression but trans women don't just as much?

Because the former are correctly perceived as female, and thus treated like all females. And, indeed, if females are being perceived as a functional reproductive resource, then the infertile female is going to suffer on that basis of not performing her role...

The latter are correctly perceived as male, and thus treated like all males. No-one is starting from the expectation that they can or will produce babies, unlike infertile women.

(And, of course, infertility is a spectrum. It's often hard to say someone is absolutely sterile, rather than having a fertility difficulty that can be overcome.)

JK Rowling article
JK Rowling article
JK Rowling article
NecessaryScene · 24/03/2022 08:25

Thinking back to Alex Sharpe's Animal Farm thing (shudder), this is a bit like two blokes in a pantomime cow outfit demanding to know how, as non-milk producers, they don't suffer from as much reproduction-based oppression as an actual cow that doesn't produce milk...

334bu · 24/03/2022 08:58

Thinking back to Alex Sharpe's Animal Farm thing (shudder), this is a bit like two blokes in a pantomime cow outfit demanding to know how, as non-milk producers, they don't suffer from as much reproduction-based oppression as an actual cow that doesn't produce milk...

Grin
Helleofabore · 24/03/2022 09:55

SamphiretheStickerist

Well, I am certainly not going to propose what Fuchs will come back with.

However, these are some of the argument you, I and other regulars have seen on MN.

The [insert %] changed to be female argument

Based on these males receiving estrogen supplements, the argument is that with breast development and circulating estrogen a male is approaching 'female' levels so is more 'female' than male. And they may have artificially created neo-vaginas too.

This ignores that cells are coded for life and that those cells if they are not stopped fulfilling their purpose, either through suppression, damage or removal of the body parts they send messages to, those cells will revert back to doing their thing. So this is a wholly artificial scenario.

It also ignores the fact that any modified body part will not perform as the female original does. And that simply calling it a Neo-vagina, does not make it so at all. Although, if they want the ultimate test, they could always see if it will push a small watermelon out without ripping it apart. And the fact it is not self-lubricating or self-cleaning.

But it is a scenario that they need to believe makes them into something they are materially not.

All those people are, are males with modifications. And males with modifications do not become females.

NOTE: Let's be clear here, they are not breasts that actually produce milk until artificially induced to due so and even then.... the milk has not be adequately assessed for nutrition or safety for an infant. AND this also comes back to the fact that the male has no programming to make the changes to the milk composition that a female body does to suit their infant's needs. This is again, the complete lack of understanding of males about the connection that females have with their babies and the way a female body reacts to that child, either in utero or through breast milk.

Something that I notice Fuchs has simply ignored. Because it is an inconvenient truth that overshadows that anticipation of pregnant males)

All humans are 'biological'

yeah, this is a waste of time to even bother to argue. But I saw it on twitter even today so it is still being wheeled out.

But the argument requires separating each word and believing that humans will not assume the meaning from the words used together. It is facile and still relies on the forced meaning of the word 'woman'.

Because they are perceived as women, and no one should be checking genitals

So few of these males 'pass', but this is indeed the passing myth. There may be an argument for the very few males who have had puberty blockers in time. But, the reality is, that even there, there may be cues. And there are so few of those males, yet they are wheeled as a the 'proof'.

I mean, we have even seen Fuchs tell us that transitioned males are mistaken for women and then experience 'misogyny' and sexist discrimination. That argument heavily relies on someone not being able to physically see that person and see them move.

And it is truly offensive to force males into the millennia of female oppression based on our female sexed bodies. Imagine, just imagine, if females who had no trans identity tried to force themselves into ''transitioned male oppression'. It would actually be harmful for those transitioned males. But some people really cannot comprehend this.

They are too far entrenched in their ideology.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/03/2022 09:56

Thinking back to Alex Sharpe's Animal Farm thing (shudder),

Let's not Grin

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/03/2022 09:57

But good analogy. Send it to Alex!

nepeta · 24/03/2022 13:41

Elaine Fuchs

Overall, and I think this is the main point though, you underestimate the degree of shared misogyny that trans women and cis women share. You do accept that trans women can experience sexism and misogyny, but they are still unwelcome, what degree of misogyny does a trans woman have to face before she is allowed the title of woman? Do all cis women exceed this?

I never wrote that trans women are unwelcome or are not allowed to have the title of woman in most social contexts. More about that further down. But first:

My beef is with the fact that all names for the female biological sex are being erased, while the MRAs and incels and so on attack the female biological sex directly and while the evolutionary psychology justifications for the subjugation of women are based on that concept. And I am extremely worried about the erasure of terms we can use to explain why girls over twelve still cannot go to school in Afghanistan.

If the two biological sexes indeed were truly equally treated, then it wouldn't matter what identity people pick for themselves.

But that is NOT the case, and the new gender ideology makes it extremely hard, if not impossible, to continue the work that is needed. Those who try to do that are accused of transphobia or at least of not being inclusive. Inclusiveness here actually means erasing the identities of every single woman (and, in theory, man, though in practice very few are re-defining men which in itself suggests the sexist aspect to the new way of thinking) when that identity is directly based on biological sex. This is not allowed.

I also have problems with the many theoretical contradictions within the gender identity concept and the current impossibility of even discussing them online.

One of the major questions I have is how a replacement categorisation based on femininity rather than on female biological sex can ever result in equality of the new genders, given that femininity seems to mean being passive, submissive, emotional and nurturing, while masculinity seems to mean being active, dominant, rational and competitive. Those are all adjectives that have been used to justify women's lower placement in societies.

Ten years ago I created a framework (just for myself) for including trans women in feminist work. That was based on the idea that if they present as women in all aspects of their lives, then they are going to face the same mistreatment as most women do, and so much of feminism is directly applicable to them. The exception was female reproductive rights, but at that time I was incredibly naive and assumed that trans people have surgeries which would make this question moot.

From the same angle, trans men would be grouped with men as they would partly share in what some call male privilege. Once again, I assumed that reproduction would not be a relevant question here.

I was incredibly naive, as I noted, and the advent of the nonbinary category caused the whole framework to collapse as nobody knows how others see them and so how others would treat them. Mostly, I suspect, nonbinary people looking female to others would be treated with the same sexism etc. as women experience, while nonbinary people looking like male would benefit from that the way men do.

But where I was truly naive was in assuming that the basic idea of feminism as centrally focused on combating sex-based discrimination was not going to be challenged. In my original framework trans men where treated like biological men and trans women like biological women, and that was the way they were slotted into my system. I had no idea that the demands were for the definition of 'woman' to be completely dismantled and biological sex removed from it!

Once you do that, then fighting sex-based oppression becomes almost impossible, only doable by pretending that each example is a completely separate problem: Pregnant people, menstruators, birthers, and people experiencing menopause actually largely are the same people, but now they would be treated as separate groups.

And once you do that, you certainly erase my 'identity' as a woman which is embodied and based on what it is like to live with a female body.

As an aside, I doubt that 'identity' is the correct term here, as I possess no abstract gender identity. So I don't identify as a woman in some female-soul sense, but I certainly identify with other women when it comes to reproductive rights and experiences of sex discrimination, sexual violence, and general contempt towards female-bodied people so many on this planet demonstrate.

VestofAbsurdity · 24/03/2022 15:50

For many intents and purposes, trans women who are undergoing/have undergone a medical transition are in many ways biological women (although not all). So the phrase biological woman carries some ambiguity (I think it's transphobic too, as it suggests there is a correct biology to be a woman, imagine if I suggested that only fertile women were biological women for example)

Do please explain with peer reviewed evidence how a biological male becomes a biological female when undergoing transition, otherwise I shall file it under more ridiculous nonsense.

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