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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling article

496 replies

DrDreReturns · 16/03/2022 08:56

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
SamphiretheStickerist · 22/03/2022 15:59

Grace Lavery! Of course! I had quite forgotten that individual. Selective amnesia for my own protection!

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 16:03

I don't believe that happened. Short of being told in person by large numbers of trans women there's nothing that could convince me this is actually happening. Sorry.

Such an extraordinary claim requires some really compelling proof. More than just anonymous Internet comments. (not that we even have those in this thread)

Considering the quality of your contributions on this thread so far, your believing or not is of no consequence.

So far you have stated I am a bigot, I hate trans people, that I am anti-abortion. These are all false allegations and are ad hominem because YOU cannot provide any coherent and logically sound argument to back up your claims.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, this is happening and it is out there.

Whether you choose to believe it or not doesn't make reality disappear. At all. But crack on because what you are providing is the readers an excellent demonstration of the 'nah nah nah, I can't hear you, you [insert insult]' that convinces not one reader except the inadequacy of your claims.

Please do crack on. We can keep this up for as long as you like.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 16:04

@SamphiretheStickerist

Grace Lavery! Of course! I had quite forgotten that individual. Selective amnesia for my own protection!
I though the love heart at the end of that tweet really said it all.

Only a fool would make such ad hom attacks and declare it just is not happening without checking if it actually IS happening for themselves.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 16:28

She didn't say that she or any other woman would get a womb or get pregnant for the purpose of having an abortion.

To me, the smile is there indicating that within our lifetimes, trans women becoming pregnant will be commonplace/easy enough that it happens without a desire to keep it.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 16:30

@Helleofabore

I don't believe that happened. Short of being told in person by large numbers of trans women there's nothing that could convince me this is actually happening. Sorry.

Such an extraordinary claim requires some really compelling proof. More than just anonymous Internet comments. (not that we even have those in this thread)

Considering the quality of your contributions on this thread so far, your believing or not is of no consequence.

So far you have stated I am a bigot, I hate trans people, that I am anti-abortion. These are all false allegations and are ad hominem because YOU cannot provide any coherent and logically sound argument to back up your claims.

Whether you choose to believe it or not, this is happening and it is out there.

Whether you choose to believe it or not doesn't make reality disappear. At all. But crack on because what you are providing is the readers an excellent demonstration of the 'nah nah nah, I can't hear you, you [insert insult]' that convinces not one reader except the inadequacy of your claims.

Please do crack on. We can keep this up for as long as you like.

I didn't claim you hate trans people.

I believe you hold discriminatory attitudes towards trans people.

I don't believe you are pro life in general, but it's clear that your pro choice attitude doesn't extend to those you don't consider real women.

SamphiretheStickerist · 22/03/2022 16:30

Which 'she'?

Did you look up Jessica Alves - or was that 'she' inconvenient?

MingeofDeath · 22/03/2022 16:32

@ Elainefuchs.

No human male is going to get pregnant. Ever.

SamphiretheStickerist · 22/03/2022 16:34

I didn't claim you hate trans people.

You use the word tansphobic, don't you? Have said posters are bigoted, etc

I believe you hold discriminatory attitudes towards trans people.

And I say we couldn't care less about how someone chooses to live until those choices bring them into conflict with the rights and dignity of women and girls

I don't believe you are pro life in general, but it's clear that your pro choice attitude doesn't extend to those you don't consider real women.

So you are calling poster liars! And deciding that not considering transwomen to be women is somehow killing them, denying them life?

Again: it is you that has the weird, unscientific beliefs. Show us your proof that human beings can change sex. That a man can be anything other than a man no matter how he presents himself on a daily basis.

I don't have to prove anything because I actually understand science, human biology.

Helleofabore · 22/03/2022 16:35

Womb transplants for trans women are a fantastic prospect for many I'm sure.

They are implants not transplants.

Ok. Let's do this.

How would it be 'centred on the developing human' to have a uterus that has absolutely none of the connectivity to the rest of the body as it has in a female? Fuchs, I doubt that you have ever been pregnant or you would have realised that the female human contributes a great deal more than 'just a uterus'. There is an entire system that supports that developing life.

Or are you believing in a Star Trek scenario? Where a body can be reduced to atoms and then recreated as a female body. That would be the only way this works.

A pregnancy involves having to have a brain designed to monitor all the levels within a foetus and adjust them accordingly. A male cannot have this processing power implanted at the same time. So, how does the foetus pull the right type and levels of calcium even to form bones and teeth.

Do you think that a doctor is going to just know exactly how and when to do this?

In fact, if you had been pregnant, you would completely understand how specialists cannot even give you a correct date when things happen, they cannot even tell you when that child is going to be born. Even if you give them the actual date of conception.

So, when does your body know what dose of relaxotin to release and when and over what time to allow a body to cope with the growing child inside? And does the male body even produce this to demand?

And please do tell us how you think a developing foetus will be affected by the extreme cocktail of drugs needed to allow that uterus to stay viable while that foetus is inside a MALE recipient. Considering that most males still retain they penis and testicles, and testosterone suppression is by accounts from medical specialists, unreliable, what effect with this testosterone have on that developing foetus.

And please do tell us how a full artificial cocktail of hormones needed for that pregnancy (ie. not just supplementing one that is deficient) will effect that developing foetus.

All for a male to enact their 'dream'.

Everything about that pregnancy is centred on the male. Not one thing about that pregnancy is about the child developing inside.

And you fully believe you are ethically on the right side of this?

It seems you lack to ability to understand pregnancy and how the body works as much as you lack the ability to understand how sex categories work.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 16:36

@MingeofDeath

@ Elainefuchs.

No human male is going to get pregnant. Ever.

Actually hundreds of trans men give birth every year.
SamphiretheStickerist · 22/03/2022 16:38
Grin

That isn't even sophistry!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 22/03/2022 16:39

It's bobbins Grin

334bu · 22/03/2022 16:47

Actually hundreds of trans men give birth every year.

Hundreds? Also no men involved here just female humans with female reproductive systems giving birth the old fashioned way . How they identify is irrelevant in this case.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 16:49

@Helleofabore

Womb transplants for trans women are a fantastic prospect for many I'm sure.

They are implants not transplants.

Ok. Let's do this.

How would it be 'centred on the developing human' to have a uterus that has absolutely none of the connectivity to the rest of the body as it has in a female? Fuchs, I doubt that you have ever been pregnant or you would have realised that the female human contributes a great deal more than 'just a uterus'. There is an entire system that supports that developing life.

Or are you believing in a Star Trek scenario? Where a body can be reduced to atoms and then recreated as a female body. That would be the only way this works.

A pregnancy involves having to have a brain designed to monitor all the levels within a foetus and adjust them accordingly. A male cannot have this processing power implanted at the same time. So, how does the foetus pull the right type and levels of calcium even to form bones and teeth.

Do you think that a doctor is going to just know exactly how and when to do this?

In fact, if you had been pregnant, you would completely understand how specialists cannot even give you a correct date when things happen, they cannot even tell you when that child is going to be born. Even if you give them the actual date of conception.

So, when does your body know what dose of relaxotin to release and when and over what time to allow a body to cope with the growing child inside? And does the male body even produce this to demand?

And please do tell us how you think a developing foetus will be affected by the extreme cocktail of drugs needed to allow that uterus to stay viable while that foetus is inside a MALE recipient. Considering that most males still retain they penis and testicles, and testosterone suppression is by accounts from medical specialists, unreliable, what effect with this testosterone have on that developing foetus.

And please do tell us how a full artificial cocktail of hormones needed for that pregnancy (ie. not just supplementing one that is deficient) will effect that developing foetus.

All for a male to enact their 'dream'.

Everything about that pregnancy is centred on the male. Not one thing about that pregnancy is about the child developing inside.

And you fully believe you are ethically on the right side of this?

It seems you lack to ability to understand pregnancy and how the body works as much as you lack the ability to understand how sex categories work.

Ok, scientific literature calls it a transplant. So I'm gonna go with that terminology.

There are also papers by actual doctors saying it's daunting but not impossible. I trust them over you I'm afraid.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/03/2022 16:52

Poster: No human male is going to get pregnant. Ever.

Elaine: Actually hundreds of trans men give birth every year.

Confused Well, this is revealing.

Elaine thinks "trans men" are biological males who wish to be women. Do a bit of reading, and get yourself up to speed, Elaine. Come back after that.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/03/2022 16:54

There are also papers by actual doctors saying it's daunting but not impossible. I trust them over you I'm afraid.

As you seem to think "trans men" is the term.for biological males like Lia Thomas, Rachel Levine and Caitlyn Jenner, I have doubts about whether you comprehended these papers.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 16:57

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Poster: No human male is going to get pregnant. Ever.

Elaine: Actually hundreds of trans men give birth every year.

Confused Well, this is revealing.

Elaine thinks "trans men" are biological males who wish to be women. Do a bit of reading, and get yourself up to speed, Elaine. Come back after that.

What? Trans men are men who want to be men. They were incorrectly assigned female at birth.

After trans masculine hormone therapy they may have several male sex characteristics.

Trans women can't get pregnant yet, but I hope it happens in our lifetime.

At the end of the day though, what sex characteristics other people have is none of your business, and you should stop caring so much, and using it as a tool to discriminate.

ElaineFuchs · 22/03/2022 16:58

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

There are also papers by actual doctors saying it's daunting but not impossible. I trust them over you I'm afraid.

As you seem to think "trans men" is the term.for biological males like Lia Thomas, Rachel Levine and Caitlyn Jenner, I have doubts about whether you comprehended these papers.

No, these people are trans woman.

The poster above asked for males/men who get pregnant. Nothing about women

ScrollingLeaves · 22/03/2022 16:58

@ElaineFuchs
There are also papers by actual doctors saying it's daunting but not impossible. I trust them over you I'm afraid

Links to peer reviewed scientific papers please.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/03/2022 17:00

There is no point trying to argue with the kind of people who make the absurd claim that biological sex doesn't exist as a meaningful category. I find this poster's style familiar.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/03/2022 17:03

@ElaineFuchs
What? Trans men are men who want to be men. They were incorrectly assigned female at birth

I think if you were talking of trans men who give birth (female bodied humans) then they would have been correctly identified or observed as being female at birth, or in many cases before birth.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/03/2022 17:03

Elaine that is the point.

A poster said biological mals couldn't get pregnant. Your retort was that "trans men" could.

"Trans men" are biologically female. Female people remain female, even if they have elective mastectomies and take testosterone supplements. Of course they can get pregnant.

It does not mean Lia Thomas can.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 22/03/2022 17:04

twitter thread

Described situation is not possible,thought.
Pregnancy is very complex process that require differently built heart,blood vessels, some brain parts (that control hormonal levels) and other systems of organism.
Situation described will kill both male and kid in womb in 100% cases.

"Pregnant blood" with extra nutrients will clot small blood vessels in male body and brains, which will kill them.
Body will not be able to change hormonal levels and change nutrition separation, which will kill the kid.
No amount of "what if" and medical advancements can fix it.

twitter.com/Iamthisnotthat1/status/1502267055403376642?t=OsZMvVsfhjdN6SPX2UovgQ&s=19

SamphiretheStickerist · 22/03/2022 17:06

There are also papers by actual doctors saying it's daunting but not impossible. I trust them over you I'm afraid.

You are quoting me now!?!?!?!?!

MingeofDeath · 22/03/2022 17:07

@ElaineFuchs

Transmen are human females. HTH.