Yvette cooper on times radio

[Theeyeballsinthesky]

Apparently defining what a woman is “is going down a rabbit hole”

FFS and I thought Yvette cooper was one of the smart ones! How can they not see what an electoral own goal this? They will be asked this very simple basic question again & again and the more they flap their hands and refuse to say the bleeding obvious ie a woman is an adult human female, the worse they look. It’s a fucking gift for the Tories!!

twitter.com/stigabell/status/1501469718779154438?s=21

Surely she's avoiding the question for the very reason that she doesn't want to get into hand-flapping.

If you think the Tories are going to make women better off then you might need another think.

I’d rather cut my fucking hand off than vote Tory but I’m not going to vote for a party that is too scared or too stupid to tell the truth about what a woman is

How can Labour tackle any issues affecting women if their definition of women includes men who feel like women? You can’t even get an accurate baseline to work from. It’s utterly ludicrous!

I’ve voted Labour all my life & now I’m politically homeless

The important corollary here is - if "woman" isn't "adult human female", then what is the word for "adult human female"?

This isn't just about the definition of a word - it's not the word that's important. It's the human females that are important.

This is about the class of human females, and them being denied recognition as a class with particular needs and interests.

As JKR said yesterday - "Apparently, under a Labour government, today will become We Who Must Not Be Named Day."

The important corollary here is - if "woman" isn't "adult human female", then what is the word for "adult human female"?

I suppose they'd tell is it was cis woman .

Maybe we should campaign for cis woman spaces.

I think its a matter of fact that the definition of "woman" varies by context and who is speaking. It is also the case that we can't and shouldn't restrict the word only to mean "adult human female" in all contexts and for everyone (because that is facism, compelled speech and does not permit individual agency). But there are all sorts of words for which this is true (fruit, berry, neo-libearlism, competition etc etc).

But the category woman is used to confer rights under law and possible differential treatment. There is no reason why Cooper and Dodds could not have been more explicit here. They could have simply said
"Well the word woman can mean different things to different people, but when we are talking about single sex spaces we mean - `adult human female' "

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I’d rather cut my fucking hand off than vote Tory but I’m not going to vote for a party that is too scared or too stupid to tell the truth about what a woman is

How can Labour tackle any issues affecting women if their definition of women includes men who feel like women? You can’t even get an accurate baseline to work from. It’s utterly ludicrous!

I’ve voted Labour all my life & now I’m politically homeless

Completely agree OP.

@drwitch

I think its a matter of fact that the definition of "woman" varies by context and who is speaking. It is also the case that we can't and shouldn't restrict the word only to mean "adult human female" in all contexts and for everyone (because that is facism, compelled speech and does not permit individual agency). But there are all sorts of words for which this is true (fruit, berry, neo-libearlism, competition etc etc).

But the category woman is used to confer rights under law and possible differential treatment. There is no reason why Cooper and Dodds could not have been more explicit here. They could have simply said
"Well the word woman can mean different things to different people, but when we are talking about single sex spaces we mean - `adult human female' "

“Fascism” Clearly you have no experience of actual fascism. Ffs.

@iwantmyownicecreamvan

The important corollary here is - if "woman" isn't "adult human female", then what is the word for "adult human female"?

I suppose they'd tell is it was cis woman .

Maybe we should campaign for cis woman spaces.

No. Not "cis" women because that excludes the following females:

• trans men
• non binary people who are actually female
• people like me who don't accept the doctrine of faith that everyone has an innate gender so are not cis

Plus it includes the batshittery that is some transwomen claiming to be so fully transitioned that they are now cis

@sirVixofVixHall read what i actually said.

Policing speech is an instrinsic part of fascism. Its bad when they (the TRAs) do it to us and when we do it to them. -

Speech is a mechanism for communication. Plenty of words are used in multiple ways in different contexts and arguably have multiple meanings because they convey a particular meaning in that context, but most have a core meaning (occasionally more than one core meaning) that makes sense of all those additional contextual meanings.

For example, some gay people I knew referred to each other as sister. This was them playing with ideas of femininity. They meant their male friend, but the word doesn't suddenly mean "male friend" just because it did in that context. Indeed to understand why they used the word in that context you need to know that it means female sibling.

Similarly when the word woman is used to describe a man, it is because it means adult human female that it is use to convey a particular meaning in that context, not because the word woman actually has a new core meaning of adult human male (who has feminine traits/considers himself to be a woman etc. etc.).

I don’t see in what context women doesn’t mean “adult human female”

If that means that in some contexts TWAW then no thank you!

TWATW - they are not women because only adult human females are women

Oh, well. I did have hope for her. That's it for me. She's a coward.

It's not Coopers fault, it's Starmers. If he allowed a full, open discussion about single spaces, all women shortlists etc then we'd soon have it sorted out. But he's running scared from the rainbow contingent so he has to ban his members from publicly stating facts.

It's so embarrassing watching them pretending not to know stuff and it won't go away until its properly addressed but the leader must take the lead.

[quote drwitch]@sirVixofVixHall read what i actually said.

Policing speech is an instrinsic part of fascism. Its bad when they (the TRAs) do it to us and when we do it to them. -[/quote]
So.....
Dictionaries are "compelling speech" now are they?

FFS. We already have the language it’s Woman and Transwoman.

There is no reason why Cooper and Dodds could not have been more explicit here.

There is a reason though. Ask Rosie Duffield about it.

It's always more disappointing when the good ones let you down.

I don't imagine for a nanosecond she believes it either.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

I don’t see in what context women doesn’t mean “adult human female”

If that means that in some contexts TWAW then no thank you!

TWATW - they are not women because only adult human females are women

Am not trying to say that woman has any other meaning (quite the opposite), rather that it being used in various contexts to communicate a different meaning relies on the fact that it has a stable definition. Obviously didn't explain myself very well!

Ah no @PaleBlueMoonlight you explained yourself very well :)

I was just making the general point :)

👍

Yvette is one of the best Labour politicians but saying that women are female is the fastest way to get yourself kicked out of the Labour Party right now so it's hardly surprising that she doesn't want to go there.

If she wants to be seen as a leader (or leading figure) she needs to show courage on this. She hasn't. That's it.

Yeah but how can you lead that?

Most of the Labour Party is ideologically captured, how can you lead it if you are openly gender critical?

You couldn't lead the Labour Party in 2022 for the same reason that Rory Stewart couldn't lead the Tories.

To enter into a situation or begin a process or journey that is particularly strange, problematic, difficult, complex, or chaotic, especially one that becomes increasingly so as it develops or unfolds

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/go+down+the+rabbit+hole

Well I can see how a circular definition may take you there but others available