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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Maya Forstater hearing starts Monday

999 replies

MForstater · 06/03/2022 15:28

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions Hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 15/03/2022 13:14

I can’t see how ‘sincerely held’ can be a criteria. People hold all sorts of daft beliefs, often sincerely.

VestofAbsurdity · 15/03/2022 13:16

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

I don't know. Are you implying men are going to dress up as women? I don't find that credible.

No special dressing required, is there. Just a declaration given that no challenges are possible.

Men have dressed as Policemen (notably the Boston Strangler) and Priests to access their victims why they hell wouldn't they dress as women? The Cambridge Rapist did as that was the only way he could access women only colleges in Cambridge.

This man is so thick and blinkered it is embarrassing.

drwitch · 15/03/2022 13:18

With this kind of evidence they could probably build a case that CGD was institutionally sexist

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 13:20

@drwitch

With this kind of evidence they could probably build a case that CGD was institutionally sexist
I think my teenager could build that case, it's so transparent.
tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 13:20

'With this kind of evidence they could probably build a case that CGD was institutionally sexist.'

I love that BCQC didn't hold back. He was entirely clear that these are LE's prejudices, not MF's.

nevercis · 15/03/2022 13:23

Exactly Vest

And not just dressed up - actually become priests, policeman etc to abuse.

To assume a bloke won't thrown on a wig and lippy if he thinks it will further his predatory aims is just bizarre.

Luke isn't very worldly wise is he. I am astounded he has the job that he does. As I suspect are CGD now.

VestofAbsurdity · 15/03/2022 13:23

Just because I’m an atheist doesn’t make me uniquely dangerous to religious people being safe from discrimination at work.

Exactly Sophocles, doesn't make you anti any particular religion or the adherents of that religion but in the upside down world of Gender Identity Ideology you are automatically framed as anti trans if you don't adhere to, parrot and subjugate yourself to it, you have to believe what they believe about themselves and affirm that you believe it. It's totalitarian mind control.

mateysmum · 15/03/2022 13:23

I wonder whether being cross examined like this will make LE question his own beliefs. How can he possibly keep it up when it's so clearly demonstrated to be nonsense?

Not quite sure I'd be that hopeful but I do reckon that every every time LE claims he doesn't understand/know etc it's because he's thinking "Oh shit" as the tiny remaining rational section of his brain sees the trap that's been laid and the utter irrational nature of his views.

Amazing isn't it how these people can seriously say they are not prejudiced. They are so convinced they are right that it is not within their comprehension to even question their beliefs - that is until they come up against BC!

drwitch · 15/03/2022 13:24

I think BC is excellent and really good at this BUT his killer arguments are the same as Anya Palmer in the original case (or indeed that Maya made when she was trying to get him to listen).
What is that distinguishes BC from AP and MF which would make LE take him more seriously?

purplesequins · 15/03/2022 13:26

What is that distinguishes BC from AP and MF which would make LE take him more seriously?

let me guess: a penis?

VestofAbsurdity · 15/03/2022 13:32

@nevercis

Exactly Vest

And not just dressed up - actually become priests, policeman etc to abuse.

To assume a bloke won't thrown on a wig and lippy if he thinks it will further his predatory aims is just bizarre.

Luke isn't very worldly wise is he. I am astounded he has the job that he does. As I suspect are CGD now.

Yes, the lengths predators will go to to access their victims is boundless and to think they wouldn't do something as simple as dress as something else is bizarre and dangerous.
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/03/2022 13:33

BC: Email from Quantum Impact with report - identifies version for claimant - says "it's vague, deliberately vague, because we shouldn't get into discussion with claimant because she knows her stuff really well"

Shock

jfc. their approach really is 'la la la not listening'

'I don't want to give Maya the opportunity to get into discussion with us because she might persuade us'

fuck me

TheABC · 15/03/2022 13:34

Delurking to applaud Ben. I"be rarely read any public debate that has so clearly nailed the issue at hand. LE has been crucified.

It will be interesting to see the impact of both this tribunal and Alison Bailey's case on public discourse.

JackieWeaversZoomAc · 15/03/2022 13:36

@tabbycatstripy

(Right, have to have a break now!)
I don't know what magic you are using to get this all down but you are doing a really splendid job. thank you.

I've watched all of today and a few hours on each of the other days. Today has been riviting.

Ben Cooper is pulling all the theads together & breaking stuff down completley brilliantly.

TofuDelights · 15/03/2022 13:37

P29, don't know how to quote but LE comment re 'not knowing the right wing arguments' - is this pertinent? He thinks that due to knowing that humans can't change sex is right wing!!

Sorry if that's already been mentioned, it's a fast moving thread, but that really jumped out at me.

bishophaha · 15/03/2022 13:38

Just catching up. BC saying that "it's an MRA position" - to say that saying 98% of sexual violence is done by men is an attack on all men - is

bishophaha · 15/03/2022 13:39

tofu no that's in response to the suggestion LE's beliefs match Men's Rights Activists' beliefs (generally thought of as right-wing)

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 13:40

Thank you for all the kind compliments :)

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 13:40

@TofuDelights

P29, don't know how to quote but LE comment re 'not knowing the right wing arguments' - is this pertinent? He thinks that due to knowing that humans can't change sex is right wing!!

Sorry if that's already been mentioned, it's a fast moving thread, but that really jumped out at me.

I thought that comment was regarding BC's argument that denying men commit 98% of sexual crime was an MRA stance.

I could be wrong, as you say it's fast moving.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 13:40

Tofu: To be fair, BC did say 'MRA, right-wing argument. I was going quite quickly and something had to be truncated. It really is hard to keep up!

CharlieParley · 15/03/2022 13:42

@Ereshkigalangcleg

LE: I didn't understand that belief was protected under UK law at the time I was involved in the decision-making.

Why didn't LE inform himself of the legal position in the area this specific employee was in? We're not subject to US employment law in this country.

Because the US employers I know do not care.

I have observed this with for over 15 years with a particular company. They have offices in UK, Germany (where employee protections are even stronger) and various other EU countries. They continually apply their US-based understanding of employment law when they decide to get rid off someone. It has cost them upwards of £1m in the last five years alone and they just tried it again. It's not that they don't know or understand, it's that they strongly believe they ought to be able to sack at their leisure. Each and every time they try to do this, they absolutely expect to be able to do this. They don't care that they can't. And not every employee can fight back, so they do get away with it often enough to make this a worthwhile tactic.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 13:43

CharlieParley:

I think CGD know perfectly well they breached UK employment law. They are prepared to lose.

JackieWeaversZoomAc · 15/03/2022 13:43

@yourhairiswinterfire

I'm really looking forward to that one. It's fairly soon isn't it? April/May?

It is! It's going to be 20 days long Shock

From Allison's update:

The main point arising from today is that the Full Merits Hearing (Trial) has now been extended from 8 days to 20 days. The Tribunal (and the lawyers’ diaries) could not accommodate this until April 2022, so the trial has been moved back until then, and is now running from 25 April to 23 May 2022.

Not sure when Maya's ruling is expected but it must have huge relevance for Allison Bailey's case? I wouldnt be surprised if its scheduled to start after this ruling.
TofuDelights · 15/03/2022 13:48

Sorry if I misunderstood and thanks for the clarification! I will reread that bit and try to get my head round it properly.

Thanks to everyone for the transcripts, must improve my reading comprehension!

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 13:50

No, you didn't - I left out 'right wing' from BC's question. LE was reasonable in his reply (if you ignore the general insanity).