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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Maya Forstater hearing starts Monday

999 replies

MForstater · 06/03/2022 15:28

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions Hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

OP posts:
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5
tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:07

BC: Even behind the scenes nobody says this.

LE: no

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:09

BC says LE took objection to MF's blog post, and that he thought it was inappropriate for her to use the CGD blog platform to express her views.

LE says it was inappropriate and unusual for anyone to send him a blog for comment.

BC says it was common practice for researchers to circulate blogs for comment.

LE says it was the first time anyone sent anything to him for comment.

BC says MF says it was suggested for her to do this by someone else.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:10

BC says it's 'rich' for LE to object to MF sending him the blog, since he has just told her her Twitter comments are offensive and exclusionary (implies it was appropriate because of LE's involvement in the situation).

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:11

BC asks again whether this isn't a bit rich?

LE says he thought it was very unusual of MF to send her blog, and again thought she was advancing views that we - he corrects to I - had indicated to her that the views were offensive.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:12

BC says LE's answer tells us that he wasn't interested in language, but substance. The views themselves were offensive and to be subjected to a blanket ban.

LE says he thought the views were offensive but it wasn't his place to ban the blog and he didn't.

WinterTrees · 15/03/2022 11:14

Just wanted to interject with a massive thank you to tabbycatstripy for this clear and concise running commentary. Reading along with my jaw on the floor!

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:15

BC asks whether, when LE says MF was inappropriate, that is also something CGD doesn't object to on any other topic?

LE says MF was 'absolutist' and didn't accept that others would be offended. He says it seemed that MF was trying to convince him that she was right.

BC says LE picked up the phrase 'absolutist' from the ET.

LE says he understood her view to be one-sided.

BC asks whether LE understands that her views are one-sided because that is the nature of her views.

LE says he thinks her views are expressed in a way that calls others delusional and not based in reality.

BC asks: not based in material reality?

LE agrees.

BC says this is LE's prejudice.

LE says he's not prejudiced and has been thoughtful and considerate.

BC asks whether he's right to say that CGD does not take this position in relation to any other belief or viewpoint? Leaving aside Naziism because we're not in that territory, is there any other viewpoint that CGD bans in this way?

LE says this is correct hypothetically.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 11:16

BC: there is no other viewpoint on which CGD takes such a line, right?

LE: yes, but there will be other issues, we've just not encountered them.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:16

LE: again, we want respectful, inclusive language used in the workplace.

EJ intervenes to ask: has there been any other belief that has come to LE's attention where there has been this sort of discussion?

LE: No.

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:16

I'll take a break now. :)

Waitwhat23 · 15/03/2022 11:17

Seconding @wintertrees comment above - this has been incredibly informative - thank you for your posts tabbycatstripy!

Masdintle · 15/03/2022 11:17

@tabbycatstripy 👏👏👏

Thank you!

NecessaryScene · 15/03/2022 11:18

I hope the EHRC are glued to this mess, and taking it into consideration for whatever they're working on.

This is what happens when rights aren't properly balanced.

(And can you imagine LE being this worked up about someone saying something "offensive" w.r.t women???)

WinterTrees · 15/03/2022 11:19

@tabbycatstripy

I'll take a break now. :)
Get yourself a cup of tea and a hot cross bun. You deserve it!

(I'd nip round with both if I could!)

Datun · 15/03/2022 11:20

BC: Prejudice you brought was that any hint a TW is not a woman must be offensive and transphobic
LE: that's not a prejudice, it is offensive.
BC: Can I clarify - this is your conscious thought. Transphobic, bigoted, offensive.
LE: offensive yes

There is, right there. Discriminatory towards a protected belief, surely?

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:20

It's now emerging that there are other conversations LE would say it was inappropriate to have at work (about homosexuality/religion pro choice/pro life). But BC is pointing out that political conversations were happening at work.

He's trying to work out where the line is.

nauticant · 15/03/2022 11:20

Ahh, BC has just outed himself as a gay man. LE did too! Group hug!

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:21

Yes, big cup of tea for me.

WinterTrees · 15/03/2022 11:21

And LE says Maya's views are one-sided!

nauticant · 15/03/2022 11:21

But seriously it shows how coming from a minority can inform one's views in very different ways.

Datun · 15/03/2022 11:27

BC comes across as a smart as paint. Absolutely brilliant. And totally gets all the issues.

The thing that I find really notable about Maya is how incisive her analysis always is. She is cuts right through to the bone of matters.

Between them, they have sewn up the entire incoherence and illogical mess of this entire ideology. They are making LE look like an ideologically captured fool, who can't be coherent, because he is censoring and restricting his own words and even thoughts due to the beliefs that he must hold.

You couldn't get a better example of all the issues with gender ideology. It doesn't make sense, it's damaging, you can't talk about it, and you get punished if you do.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 15/03/2022 11:28

it's really noticeable how Maya just explaining what her views are is seen by Luke Easley as trying to persuade him

maybe it's because her views are pretty persuasive?

maybe the only to continue to believe that if a man believes he's a woman then he is one is to never listen to any counter arguments?

the 'la la la not listening' approach to deciding what's right

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:28

Back.

BC and LE discussing CGD's response to MF about whether there was going to be any policy going forward after the initial 'dealing with' her tweets. BC says there was no outstanding issue.

LE says MF's response and request to publish her blog were issues.

BC says they didn't tell MF there were still issues.

OvaHere · 15/03/2022 11:29

Last night I saw a tweet someone made about the case that sums it up well.

It really is just religious thinking isn't it.
No basis in reality ✔️ Self contradicting ✔️ Treats science like heresy ✔️ Compulsory missionary work ✔️ Requires blind obedience ✔️

tabbycatstripy · 15/03/2022 11:29

BC says what made it still an issue was Ellen McKenzie saying they weren't happy reviewing the visiting fellowship.

LE says there was more widespread discomfort.

BC says CGD tied themselves in knots because EM said they needed to have a robust debate about renewing the fellowship.

LE says no. Too much power ascribed to EM.

BREAK.