Men can do anything women can

[OhHolyJesus]

Can they? Looks like you needed not one but two women to be a father. Women can be mothers with just the sperm.

Not the same. So very far from it being the same. Men can be fathers but no they cannot be mothers.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10579037/Men-women-shouldnt-IVF-baby-own.html

They are still exploiting the father. Also depriving the child of that relationship. Same both ways.

He's too old as well. Poor kid.

In response to the claims that egg and sperm donation are comparable and if they're not, then that's why women are compensated 1000% more

Egg Donation process -

'Donating:The process for donating is exactly the same as the early stages of IVF.

• Medication taken as a daily injection or nasal spray will suppress your natural hormone production. This will give your doctor complete control of the fertility process.

• You’ll have a scan to check your natural cycle is fully suppressed. If it is, you’ll start hormone treatment (usually gonadotrophins) to boost the number of eggs your body produces.

• A day or two before your eggs are due to be collected, you’ll be given a hormone injection (normally human chorionic gonadotrophin or hCG) to help the eggs mature.

• Your eggs will be collected whilst you’re sedated or under general anaesthetic. The procedure takes around half an hour and you may feel a little sore or bruised.

• Whilst your eggs are being collected, the woman’s partner will be asked to produce a sperm sample (or her donor’s sperm will be taken from the freezer) for mixing with your eggs.'

Compensation- £750

Sperm Donation process-

'Donating:You’ll normally need to go to a fertility clinic once a week for between three and six months to make your donation. You’ll be asked to ejaculate into a cup, after which your sperm will be frozen ready for use in treatment, research or training.'

Compensation - £35

It's just ridiculous to compare the processes as being even vaguely comparable. And that's not even going into the fact that there are possible health risks to the egg donor as part of the process (hyperstimulation for example) and none with sperm donation.

@OliviaOliva

When lesbians go to a sperm bank there is no father. When gays go to egg bank there is no mother. The situations are legally and ethically the same

And what do they do with the eggs when they get them home? Boil them or fry them? Maybe make an omelette?

They are still exploiting the father.

How ridiculous.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=WO23WBji_Z0

@OliviaOliva

They are still exploiting the father. Also depriving the child of that relationship. Same both ways.

Yes, I agree to an extent. It's becoming increasingly well documented that many (most?) donor conceived people have complicated, life-long issues, whether you're talking donor egg or donor sperm.

But using donor eggs and/or surrogacy introduces additional, significant physical burden/danger to at least one woman in a way that sperm donation doesn't. While both are probably equally harmful to the child, one is far more harmful to the donor.

My heart breaks for a child deliberately denied his mother.

It's interesting to see everybody's views on this...

I agree with @OliviaOliva that it’s ethically and morally comparable.

Yes the procedures for sperm donation are far different from the procedures for egg donation BUT in both cases the donor has consented. So the fact the procedures are different is irrelevant- it’s still the donation of part of your body to a recipient out of altruism for good reason.

To object to women donating their own eggs in order to “protect them” infantilises us by withdrawing a right to donate gametes that men have.

It is also a slippery slope because let’s face it the procedures to donate many organs are more risky and complicated than egg donation, are women too weak and too stupid to consent to those as well?

Expressing concern at the obviously risks and pressures on the female body for both egg harvesting and surrogacy doesn't infantilise women, though some women do need protection from those wishing to exploit their bodies. This doesn't treat them like children but more provides protection and prioritises their wellbeing. And that's before you get into the well-being of a baby.

The medical process to obtain gametes are different for men and women but that's not the whole issue. Women may also exploit other women in surrogacy but two lesbians generally don't require it, (it can still happen but it is far more rare) but a male same-sex couples would, as would single men (and increasingly so, this is far more common).

They can't make a baby from simply mixing sperm with egg. It is a woman who has to grow and birth the baby.

What other organs can a person "donate" and receive a fee for? EmpressCixi

It is also a slippery slope because let’s face it the procedures to donate many organs are more risky and complicated than egg donation, are women too weak and too stupid to consent to those as well?

The reality is young women, 18, 19, 20 are targeted for giving up their eggs. Because commissioning parents "shop" women who have desirable traits like high IQ, beauty, health and skin color, many donors are cash-strapped college students who have never had a child of their own and whose brains are not as developed as adults over 25.

I concede there are differences of informed consent with egg donation: a woman in her 30s or 40/ who has gone through fertility treatments may donate her eggs and you could argue she has thought more clearly about the long-term impacts of egg donation (and more aware of the health risks) than a young woman of 18 who needs some fast cash.

However, money is almost always part of the donor egg equation, even for older women, as they are often given discounts for fertility treatments if they agree to donate any leftover eggs or embryos. A woman desperately wanting to be a mother might feel pressure to donate in this situation, which is also a form of coercion.

There are sone rather obtuse, and frankly very weak arguments for surrogacy on this thread.

For those interested in the topic, I found this really interesting.

Today we travel across the pond to talk to England's own, Gary Powell. Gary is a LGB activist, public administration campaigner, and an original signer of the Stop Surrogacy Now statement. Gary was tutored in Philosophy by the Rt Hon Baroness Mary Warnock, a specialist in reproductive ethics whose inquiry led to the UK Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990. Join us as we find out why, as a gay man, Gary opposes surrogacy

[Venus Rising] Podcast #003 - Gary Powell #venusRising
podcastaddict.com/episode/84165646 via @PodcastAddict

And this one

We have a very special guest with us today! Matt Doran bravely shares with us his very personal story of growing up and finding out that he was a ‘donor’ conceived human being. Matt is both an aerospace mechanical engineer as well as an advocate against donor conception. Matt created and founded the first free worldwide social network for ‘donor’ conceived people, sperm/egg/embryo/surrogate ‘donors’, and social parents of ‘donor’ conceived people. His mission is to help connect biological families and offer support to other ‘donor’ conceived people so that they can create a demographic body that will create legislative change. You can find more about his foundation at DonorChildren.com.

[Venus Rising] Podcast #008 - Matt Doran #venusRising
podcastaddict.com/episode/100581145 via @PodcastAddict

@yellowtwo

What other organs can a person "donate" and receive a fee for? EmpressCixi

What do you mean? It is illegal for a woman to sell her eggs for profit in the U.K. it is normal for donors of all organs to be compensated any costs they might bear due to donation surgery, recovery, lost wages etc.

@Delphinium20

It is also a slippery slope because let’s face it the procedures to donate many organs are more risky and complicated than egg donation, are women too weak and too stupid to consent to those as well?

The reality is young women, 18, 19, 20 are targeted for giving up their eggs. Because commissioning parents "shop" women who have desirable traits like high IQ, beauty, health and skin color, many donors are cash-strapped college students who have never had a child of their own and whose brains are not as developed as adults over 25.

I concede there are differences of informed consent with egg donation: a woman in her 30s or 40/ who has gone through fertility treatments may donate her eggs and you could argue she has thought more clearly about the long-term impacts of egg donation (and more aware of the health risks) than a young woman of 18 who needs some fast cash.

However, money is almost always part of the donor egg equation, even for older women, as they are often given discounts for fertility treatments if they agree to donate any leftover eggs or embryos. A woman desperately wanting to be a mother might feel pressure to donate in this situation, which is also a form of coercion.

Then the answer to this is informed consent. Education campaigns. Not banning women from their rights with the excuse it’s for their protection. Honestly the way you go on about it you’d think they advertising to donate eggs like they do for the armed forces....which is worlds more slick and coercive to young people and actually could mean they end up dead not just a little bit worse off...

Honestly the way you go on about it you’d think they advertising to donate eggs like they do for the armed forces....which is worlds more slick and coercive to young people and actually could mean they end up dead not just a little bit worse off...

You mean like how they advertise the harvesting of eggs from young women starting university as they do in the U.K. with images of smiling young women and wording about being an Angel or helping others, that sort of thing?

It's unlikely I think to die from harvesting eggs but IVF drugs may be connected to reproductive cancers (studies flip flop on the subject, there appears to be no conclusive evidence and I wonder how much the pharmaceutical manufacturers are involved) but you could end up infertile, or suffer from OHSS.

Not as bad as being blown to pieces in a war though so I guess it's ok.

Then the answer to this is informed consent.

Difficult if you are told there are no risks which isn't the same as being told there are no known risks.

EmpressCixi
This thread is not just about the UK.
It is illegal to buy and sell organs everywhere in the world, yet people are buying women's wombs.

@yellowtwo

EmpressCixi This thread is not just about the UK. It is illegal to buy and sell organs everywhere in the world, yet people are buying women's wombs.

Not in the U.K. as it is also illegal to be a surrogate for profit. Other places are wrong to not have the laws we have in place about selling organs or wombs for profit. That’s another topic really, the fact other countries do not regulate to prevent exploitation.

I feel sick at the casualness with which he chose a male embryo over a female

' Avoiding the risk of bonding was also one of the reasons the agency recommended having a separate egg donor, so there was no genetic link to the surrogate'

JFC. The RISK of bonding? Bonding is essential for a happy, well adjusted child. Its obscene to deliberately make a child and deliberately deprive it of this bonding. Obscene.

It is a deliberate attempt to sever the links between a mother and child.

I wonder how many wealthy men we will see doing this? Designer babies, with sex selection (illegal in the U.K.) being a bonus extra