Children’s minister not ‘overly happy’ for transgender girls to board with his daughters

[zanahoria]

The children’s minister has said he would not be “overly happy” with his daughters sharing a boarding house with transgender girls.

Will Quince, minister for children and families, described the issue of trans pupils in single sex spaces as “a bit of a minefield”.

He said the "number one priority" of schools should be the safeguarding of pupils.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/01/childrens-minister-not-overly-happy-transgender-girls-board/

"There is no particular reason to segregate them by gender" - a great example of a lack of desire to find a solution. Is your view that people who are not straightforward biological boys or girls do not exist, or that they shouldn't be allowed to exist, or that you'd like to think they don't exist?

Is your view that people who are not straightforward biological boys or girls do not exist

What other sexes are there? People are either male or female, so all children are either boys or girls.

@capstix

"There is no particular reason to segregate them by gender" - a great example of a lack of desire to find a solution. Is your view that people who are not straightforward biological boys or girls do not exist, or that they shouldn't be allowed to exist, or that you'd like to think they don't exist?

Less than 10% of people in prisons are female. Less than 3% of sex offenders in prisons are female. Maybe it’s too early to disregard binary sex as a metric if you can’t name these other sexes?

Or do you mean gender identity?

@RoseslnTheHospital, @OldCrone, @OperationDessertStorm

My point was that there are people who are not straightforwardly boys or girls (for example a woman who has had a sex change operation) and that we need to find solutions (I don't have any) for people who do not fit into neat pigeon holes.

You either agree with this statement or you do not. If you do not, what is it that you are saying?

(a) That they do not exist?
(b) That they should not be allowed to exist?
(c) That they do exist but solutions must not be sought?

It's a lot less than 10%.Recent statistics in England and Wales - approx 75,000 male prisoners and 3,500 female prisoners.The number of female sex offenders is also less .

I think the solutions vary by the space tbh. And that the perfect solution doesn't exist, so if I said my solution, lots of people won't be happy! Much if the issue comes with insisting that there are lots of edge cases, which there really aren't. If my female 18 year old friend at some point has genital surgery to 'confirm her gender' it's not going to change the fact that she is 5'2, a slight female shape and more vulnerable to rape. If my 18 year old son at some point has a vaginoplasty, it's not going to change the fact that he's 6'2" and built like a brick shithouse. To say that he would be even an edge case actually suggests that the key difference between men and women is the ability to impregnate - which oddly is what GC people are always being accused of.

My point was that there are people who are not straightforwardly boys or girls (for example a woman who has had a sex change operation) and that we need to find solutions (I don't have any) for people who do not fit into neat pigeon holes.

Nobody can have 'a sex change operation' because it's not possible to change sex. They can only have cosmetic surgery to make them look more like the opposite sex, and they still remain the sex they always were. These procedures are only for adults, not children, so none of these children fall into your category of 'not straightforwardly boys or girls'.

Nobody can have 'a sex change operation' because it's not possible to change sex. They can only have cosmetic surgery to make them look more like the opposite sex, and they still remain the sex they always were. These procedures are only for adults, not children, so none of these children fall into your category of 'not straightforwardly boys or girls'.
Exactly, this thread is about children/adolescents and the question being answered by the Minister was whether male young people should be allowed to share sleeping accommodation with female young people..
Here is a clip of another MP clarifying this point .

@capstix There is no third sex - people are either male or female. You cannot change sex, you can only present as a facsimile of the opposite sex. A man or boy with a dress long hair & nail polish is not a woman or a girl. A woman with an elective mastectomy and penis made out of their forearm is not a man.

People with DSD are not an inbetween sex - that is highly insulting & they have repeatedly asked not to be dragged into this.

The solution is for men to be more accepting of non conforming men but as that would require some effort from men, then third spaces are the answer. However we’ve been told by TW that third spaces are not “validating” - apparently there’s no point in performing womanhood if there are no women around

Why exactly is it the job of women to solve the problems of men?

@capstix

"There is no particular reason to segregate them by gender" - a great example of a lack of desire to find a solution. Is your view that people who are not straightforward biological boys or girls do not exist, or that they shouldn't be allowed to exist, or that you'd like to think they don't exist?

For a start, there are only two sexes. While you might like to believe this is ‘fuzzy’ it is not and it is not supported by scientific evidence at all.

Schools have been single sex for many reasons. People may not agree with those reasons, but they exist and for those not wanting single sex, there is the usual co-ed schools.

One, and just one, of the reasons for single sex schools is safeguarding. For anyone who is advocating that males be allowed to go to female schools if they have declared a trans identity, how do you account for the risk of harm girls face from a male? Or are we not only fuzzy about sex categorization but also the fact that male students of any gender have a higher risk of committing sex crimes against females?

And sport? At that school, do all the girls give up their dreams of representing their school/region etc because even prepubertal males have a proven advantage over females. It, of course, becomes more so after puberty. Even so, should that male student be excluded from their school sports?

There ARE opportunities for children or adolescents to receive an excellent education at mixed sex schools. Or they can remain at a school of their sex.

Why not instead fight that the single sex schools ensure gender non conforming students are fully accepted as they are?

If categories are up for destabilising, should we allow mature age primary school students? If someone identifies as 10, when they are 58, are they allowed to attend a primary school?

If they are 28? Can they play sports in the under 12s primary school team?

There is no ‘lack’ of desire to find a solution in the school system. There are already solutions in place. There are already mixed sex schools.

And if a particular school wants to allow a person from another sex to attend as a student, then parents need to be advised of this happening so they can make their choice. It cannot be done without a long warning period so parents can make alternative arrangements.

Please also suggest what happens when that child or adolescent desists? Have you done any reading around how children and young people will continue with a gender identity because they don’t know how to cope with the embarrassment, shame etc of making that change back. Particularly if parents have ‘fought’ for special exemptions and provisions to be forced for their child.

How do you deal with that?

What kindness is it to let a child believe they are ‘another sex’? That they are male if they were born female or vice vers or, a completely new category that has no name. What you also seem to call for though, is for schools, parents and everyone involved to ignore that sex cannot change.

And that suspension of belief is harmful. Particularly to girls.

I just get so cross that we are having to spend time and money on this matter when there are so many more important matters to be attending to. Stone wall etc by bullying regarding trans issues means that government, institutions, companies have all 'had' to rewrite/train/ monitor thereby deflecting them from their true job and spend money better spent elsewhere health, schooling etc. So men in fact are affected (so are trans) because they too have suffered from this they just don't see it. It is frightening, all engrossing and yet it has crept up on us. The power these people have almost makes me feel there is another purpose behind it. Who could envisage a tiny, non elected proportion of the population who only care about themselves having such power. Or am I mad!?

Just posting this.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/no-means-no?r=ahiyi&s=r&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

Caroline Noakes questions Kemi Badenoch about school dormitory and sharing with trans students.

The answer is ‘no’.

The usual concerns around toilets, sports and prisons are made by those who find it difficult to accept that there are more than two sexes.

There aren't actually more than two sexes. Hope that helps.

Occasionally I wonder if its an alien invasion on the lines of The Screwfly Solution - where males 'cleanse' the world of females and are then subject to an invasion from another planet that destroys humanity. It does seem odd that such a small minority should exercise such power.

@mudgetastic

But are trans boys being excluded from the girls school ?

Sounds like that sometimes happens:

www.wrigleys.co.uk/news/education/single-sex-schools-boarding-and-transgender-pupils/

St Paul’s Girls makes an exception for trans boys but not trans girls, but the article makes it sound like allowing trans boys to attend a girls’ school is the exception not the norm.

They also discuss Frensham, a boys’ school which allows trans boys to attend (but not trans girls).

Do people like capstix actually think there are more than two sexes and that a sex change operation is possible?

capstix, there's no such thing as a sex change operation. There is cosmetic surgery. Less than 5% of men have it. And even fewer women. For a woman it means taking skin from her arm, fashioning into a tube and sewing it onto her groin. If she wants to have an 'erection', it has to have a metal post in it, permanently. Or the alternative is to put a pump into one of two fake testicles and squeeze saline into it to pump it up.

That's your 'woman's sex change operation'. They are incredibly rare and the surgery is in its infancy, so with quite a few complications, statistically.

The male surgery involves penis inversion, and dilation for the rest of the persons life, lest the wound heal up.
Again, subsequent surgeries are very common. And as I said, very few men have this surgery.

There is no operation to change sex.

And again, people born with disorders of sexual development are either male or female. There is no third sex, there is no third gamete. It's a medical condition which has got nothing to do with transgenderism. They have asked, repeatedly, vehemently and publicly not to be used as a tool by transactivists.

St Paul’s Girls makes an exception for trans boys but not trans girls, but the article makes it sound like allowing trans boys to attend a girls’ school is the exception not the norm.

Where does it make it sound like this is the 'exception not the norm'? It says:
A number of single-sex schools and boarding schools have made special arrangements for transgender pupils, particularly where the child is already a pupil of the school and has made a decision to transition away from the gender catered for by the school.

They also discuss Frensham, a boys’ school which allows trans boys to attend (but not trans girls).

Frensham is mixed (but only has boarding for boys):
Frensham School in Surrey, a mixed-sex independent school which only offers boarding places to boys hit the headlines recently as it has agreed to allow a transgender pupil (transitioning from a girl to a boy) to board in a single room within the boys' boarding house.

Where does it say that they wouldn't admit boys who identify as girls?

Is your view that people who are not straightforward biological boys or girls do not exist, or that they shouldn't be allowed to exist, or that you'd like to think they don't exist?

Sorry, I realised that I had not answered this.

straightforward biological boys or girls do not exist,

Are you asking about people with differences of sex development? Because, you know that even though it is not straightforward, they do tend to be able to be categorised as male or female. However, they have been very vocal about not being brought into this issue.

But no one denies that people with differences of sex development exist.

Or, are you suggesting that a person with a trans identity is not straightforwardly male or female? Because that is not supported at all by science.

Are you asking that we believe that they shouldn't be allowed to exist, or that you'd like to think they don't exist?

No. Plus I don't believe I have seen anyone suggest they shouldn't be allowed to exist or that they would like them not to exist?

In fact, there are posters on this board who have children who are under the trans umbrella. However, it is not unusual that posters come by and post this kind of hyperbole.

However, no matter how much we believe that all humans exist, and should exist, and so on, it does not mean that 'gender' should always be prioritised above 'sex'.

So much of the discussion around this issue consists of trying to get people to talk about something else, eg Caroline Nokes attempting to reframe the question to be about 'sharing with trans children' instead of 'males sharing with females'. Very pleased to see Kemi Badenoch's straightforward clarification there.

How we accommodate people who question their gender, or identify with the opposite sex in some way, is a different question to the one this thread started with:

Is it appropriate for male children (in this case an 18 year old, so legally adult) to share accommodation facilities with female children. (in this case possibly sharing a bedroom, and possibly sharing other facilities with much younger females).

Schools are NOT dealing with large numbers of children who aren't male or female. They are dealing with increasing numbers of straightforwardly male and female children who declare other gender identities.

We need a clear distinction between where gender identity is important and where sex is important.

Gender identity - I can't think of many areas where this really ought to matter. Uniforms should all be just a pick list that anyone can choose from - this is already the case in many places. I can't think of any others - ideas welcome.

Sex - sports, toilets, changing rooms, sleeping accommodation etc. Sex matters in these areas, and will continue to matter, whatever anyone feels about it.

If gender and sex are interchangeable, then dysphoria/trans can't be a thing. If they're separate, we need to work out clearly which one matters when. This is a fundamental safeguarding issue, and failing to base decisions on the right category is as dangerous for trans-identifying children as any others. Putting a female child in a male dormitory or changing room, or on the sports field with males, is clearly putting them at risk of harm. Putting a male child in a female bedroom puts them at risk as well as the girls. It's not hard to imagine very unpleasant misunderstandings and embarrassment, before you even consider intentional misconduct.

So much of the discussion around this issue consists of trying to get people to talk about something else, eg Caroline Nokes attempting to reframe the question to be about 'sharing with trans children' instead of 'males sharing with females'.

Absolutely.

There's a Guardian article on this too

amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/01/schools-minister-wouldnt-be-overly-happy-if-his-daughters-boarded-with-trans-pupil