A report from a mother of a swimmer - USA

[pombear]

I don't think there's a thread on this yet. This is such a powerful testament on behalf of her daughter's experience swimming against Thomas.

The coercion and pressure on the young women in the teams is shocking, as is the ACLU response when the mother contacted them.

"I was told that the words biological and genetic had no business being in a discussion around sex and gender. I was told transwomen are women, they're female, they're girls. No language that minimises that point should be tolerated. I was told it was an offensive question, my language was out of date. I was told that sex and gender are equally important and that the ACLU is actively removing sex from legal documentations and legal language"

She (ACLU rep) concluded with. "Let me tell you with certainty, the ACLU will never represent ciswomen against women"

When I shared this with my mother in law the next day she said "Well, there you go, we're literally flying the plane upside down now, aren't we"

FemaleAndLearning

Exactly. It runs to hundreds of women. And this is just one male. What happens when there are two, or four, or thirty. And there's absolutely no reason why there shouldn't be, according to the 'rules'.

I'm constantly reminded of Germaine Greer saying that women have no idea how much men hate them.

I'll bet you plenty of the people working at the ACLU, or at the university, are women.

Women prisoner's in Canada tried to get the Elizabeth Fry society to represent them on the issue of transwomen being housed in women's prisons. This is a society that's been around for almost 100 years dedicated to offering legal help to women in prison. A great many of the people who work for them are women.

The refused using the same kind of language as the ACLU here.

While there are men involved in all of this that despise women, I am not at all convinced that that is the bigger picture when you get to these kind of organizational behaviours. It does seem to me like they despise the people who disagree with them, but it seems moralistic somehow.

A collation of the knock on effects of a handful of males. I’ll add Thomas:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4175263--No-Trans-Olympian-List-of-women-and-girls-disadvantaged-in-sport-resource-thread

The warms-up would begin , the announcer reading his monologue at the beginning of every session “The Ivy League condemns all forms of transphobia” and it went on from there. Not a word about sexism in the message.
Nor, presumably about cheating.

Having been to many national competitions in the UK when DC were swimming I’ve never heard any reference to transphobia.

I wonder why the NCAA felt the need to announce it?

@MangyInseam

I'm constantly reminded of Germaine Greer saying that women have no idea how much men hate them.

I'll bet you plenty of the people working at the ACLU, or at the university, are women.

Women prisoner's in Canada tried to get the Elizabeth Fry society to represent them on the issue of transwomen being housed in women's prisons. This is a society that's been around for almost 100 years dedicated to offering legal help to women in prison. A great many of the people who work for them are women.

The refused using the same kind of language as the ACLU here.

While there are men involved in all of this that despise women, I am not at all convinced that that is the bigger picture when you get to these kind of organizational behaviours. It does seem to me like they despise the people who disagree with them, but it seems moralistic somehow.

Yes, it's really shocking that it's not just confined to men.

But I tend to see the motivation as different. Men do it because they don't see us as fully human, coupled with a sense of entitlement which dictates that we should be a resource. Whereas I believe women do it to in an attempt avoid that happening to them.

I know women who are ok with this. I don't understand it. It's as if they are magnanimously giving away other women's rights to make themselves look generous? Maybe they think it is literally possible to change sex? It's hard for me to understand their reasoning.

But I tend to see the motivation as different. Men do it because they don't see us as fully human, coupled with a sense of entitlement which dictates that we should be a resource. Whereas I believe women do it to in an attempt avoid that happening to them.

There are certainly men who think that way. But overall I find supporters of this ideology are more often women. Lots of men are quietly skeptical or neutral.

I tend to think avoiding being the victim is not what motivates most women, even unconsciously. What it reminds me of more than anything is the trope of the Victorian missionary woman or Temperance campaigner. Very self-righteous, very sure of her own moral position. Very much satisfied by being above someone else.

It's not an entirely fair trope of course, there are women who supported those things who were nothing like that, and there are also men with a similar personality type. But there is something about the social networks women build that can be very status driven, and moral status can be a vehicle for that just like wealth or fashion sense. The trope has power because we recognize that there is a truth there. Some men are similarly motivated by feeling more moral, more holy even, than other people, but I think fewer than number than the women.

Some of the men that support this stuff are the ones directly benefiting and that explains their support. And among men and women there are some people who simply do not think critically and tend to be taken in whenever the people they trust tell them a certain thing is good. Most people do this to some extent unless there is something to make them think twice.

I was able to watch this video yesterday when it was shared on twitter by Emma Hilton, but it's now marked 'private'.

It made me so angry and so upset for those young women. How can we have got here?

I honestly don't understand how anyone can think this situation is fair, or even necessary. If being trans is the new cool then let's celebrate being trans for what it is. Males who chose to live their life 'as a woman' are still not actually women. I don't see that as a hateful statement.
It is ludicrous and blatantly cruel to force young women to change & shower next to a male bodied individual. Follow this through to its logical conclusion and there will be no female athletes left competing-the female category will be full of males who were mediocre in the male category.

I came across that interview with Mara Yamauchi by chance and what a revelation it was. She is an impressive speaker who has studied the facts and figures on the effects of discrimination against female athletes, is fearless and will not stop speaking out. A formidable woman and advocate for women.

This is awful for all those young women who have trained so hard to see their achievements overshadowed, gaslighted, and made to change in front of a man. It really is Orwellian.

Although aware of it, I haven't followed the issue that closely. Surely someone somewhere has considered having a third category for sports? Men's, women's and mediocre 'open'?

The video of the webinar appears to be back up now:

Mother of Swimmer is the first speaker and her testimony is really worth your time. In case the video is removed again, the audio is also available here:

www.listennotes.com/podcasts/wdi-podcast/fqt-26-february-2022-C0mNhayVYP9/

It's just disgusting and the ACLU are a disgrace to their former good name.

I still can’t believe I had to tell my adult aged daughter, you always have a choice about whether you undress in front of a man."

Appalling.

The video of the women holding hands is moving.

The one silver lining to all this madness - female solidarity.

Which has not, does not, and will not ever include males.

It's heart-breaking listening to that mother. The level of open misogyny being expressed by the swim powers-that-be is so fucking depressing. Women are blatantly being shown how much they're worth.

I don't believe people who claim to think trans women are literally women. They're lying. Either performatively, for social cachet, or because they think it's funny, or because they're scared not to say 2+2=5. But they're lying. And they know they are, which is why they get really cross.

@NigellaAwesome

This is awful for all those young women who have trained so hard to see their achievements overshadowed, gaslighted, and made to change in front of a man. It really is Orwellian.

Although aware of it, I haven't followed the issue that closely. Surely someone somewhere has considered having a third category for sports? Men's, women's and mediocre 'open'?

Lots of men's sports are in fact open.

However, how useful that is for trans athletes might be in question. Chances are biological women won't be competitive and if the transwomen are taking hormones they won't be at the top of their game. So men would likely still dominate.

To me, if there are going to be elite type sports for transwomen or transmen with medical interventions it would be best done within the parolympics framework.

*paralympics

As the female swimmers careers have been destroyed what do they have to lose by speaking out?

The swimmers are young-they shouldn't have to fight this-but their parents sure as hell can. Bravo that Mum.

It's the worse type of injustice and on top, the swimmers are being not just silenced but coerced into pretending they support it.

On the off chance that anyone related to this is reading MN…we hear you and stand by you! This is so unfair and it makes me angry on behalf of the girls and women who are being forced to experience this.

Hearing about the women swimmers told to be silent about how they are affected, it's just the worst. No misogyny there, nosiree.

So when we hear that girls and women are fine with this, that they don't complain, that their lack of complaining shows that they are ok with it, now we know it's because the girls and women who are affected have been told that they are not allowed to speak up about the negative effects on them.