Would you say anything?

[fghjk]

My DD is 7 and what I can only describe as a VERY young 7 due to missing so much school over the last couple of years. She came home today and told me she learned about 'men who love men' - fine - and "men who become girls".

Men can become girls?

Yeah? The teacher said we can just get surgery when we're older. So I can be a boy if I want to. They just told us to talk to our parents. Can I be a boy?

Why do you need to be a boy? I thought you were a tomboy? Why wouldn't you want to be a girl? Girls can do whatever boys can do etc etc.

On and on, back and forth (I'm sure some posters will recognise this).

I went through it with her older sister when she came home aged 10 and attempted to "educate" me. She knows what is what now, but that was a week of non-stop discussion I had no idea was happening until it happened. She thought sex and gender were interchangeable. She thought it was "a feeling". She could not understand why women needed their own spaces and it took telling her about my own experiences (which I didn't really want to do) to convince her.

But... seven? SEVEN?

What adult in their right mind tells a seven year old they can have their genitals removed when they grow up? (Did they mention how many of these surgeries are actually done successfully, I wonder? Highly doubt it!)

I really want to ask if this is actually what happened and this was actually what she was told. Can I? Should I? I realise that would out me as a TERF, but at this stage I honestly don't care? I genuinely believe if she HAS to have this education then there are age appropriate ways to give it which doesn't involve seven year olds being told they can chop off their genitals (or have ones stitched on?!) when they grow up -- they just need to ask mummy and daddy first.

Or am I completely overreacting and this is just the way they're being educated these days? We are in Scotland where apparently the government believes 4 year olds should have their pronouns respected... so I don't even know if this was the teacher either majorly fucking up, or furthering her own agenda, or if this is actually the curriculum these days?

I'm just seriously annoyed that yet again there was no warning and it's putting ideas into young heads that A) they can't even understand and B) really does not matter. It feels like they're being indoctrinated into a religion I don't believe in and (certainly in my eldest's case) being taught that non-believers are wrong and going to hell.

She's always been a bit of a 'tomboy'... into football, all her friends are boys, paw patrol for years and hasn't ever looked twice at a barbie. But even at five, she was the one trying to explain to her ten year old sister who came home full of the gender nonsense that "girls can like boy stuff - it doesn't make them boys!!" and now, one sex education lesson later, she thinks she's a bloody boy. And she can just get surgery when she's older to make her a boy 'for real' 😧.

Does anyone have some practical advice on what I can do?

But knowing if this is school or gov might inform my next steps, I guess.

It's not the government, it's the school. Schools are told to teach facts only, in an age-appropriate way, and expressly told they must NOT teach children that gender non-conformity implies "wrong body".

Please complain. Like a PP I am a teacher trying to challenge this, but parents have more clout.

Why don't you tell them exactly what your daughter has told you this morning?

Good luck.

Love it @9toenails and I bet your daughter is brilliant.

@fghjk Good luck with raising this. I can't imagine how worried, and angry, you must be right now. It is absolutely absurd to be approaching this in this way and at this age, completely unnecessary and not beneficial to anyone and with real risk attached. The happiest people I know (including me, I'm lucky to say) are full of love and acceptance for themselves and those around them. Teaching tiny children this wrong body bullshit will not help anyone.

Please complain. Like a PP I am a teacher trying to challenge this, but parents have more clout.

Why don't you tell them exactly what your daughter has told you this morning?

Thank you. I was trying to research last night and kept seeing the articles surrounding the Scot Gov's new approach "Supporting Transgender Pupils in Schools".

Debate about gender self-identification is raging throughout society, but the Scottish government has taken a completely one-sided approach in its advice to schools. The Scottish authorities treat an individual’s self-declared gender identity as an unquestionable fact – even when this identity is being voiced by very young children.

And also

The Scottish guidance argues that if parents are not supportive of their child’s gender identity, then they can be bypassed entirely.

Which was making me worry some of the responses might have been based on English etc policy and not this new ScotGov strategy and that by going to the school (instead of, I dunno, more anonymously to the council / MP) I'd be "outing" myself as unsupportive of my DDs apparently new Gender Identity and thus be bypassed entirely in future (which would allow her to change her name + pronouns in school without my consent or even my knowledge).

I'm going to email her teacher, CC head, state my concerns in words so there is an email trail but say I would like to discuss this in person. As for what I'd like to happen, I kinda feel like the damage is done. Pull her out of this "education?" Ask them to agree to stop? Ask them to try again in a more age appropriate way?

I have relatives who work in Education and they've advised me to request copies of what was taught, what materials were used, what training they were given before delivering these materials. Also said I need to ask why parents were not given the materials before so we could discuss further with our children (who, let's face it, are clearly confused). Also said while I have no grounds for moving schools if I don't get anywhere (because it comes down to postcode) I could try taking this up the council chain and arguing that this constitutes grounds for moving? I imagine Catholic schools take a more sensible approach, despite the irony that I'd be swapping one ideology I disagree with for another. Albeit IMO a far less damaging one.

I'm going to try to be as... politically correct as possible and frame the bits I CAN frame as coming from someone who has spent 10+ years doing work to encourage young girls to break away from gender stereotypes and consider STEM as a career, and how I feel like simplifying this to "like football? You might really be a boy!" has basically undone years of this approach with my own daughter.

But as far as telling her she can have surgery to change her sex - I'm not sure there is really a politically correct way to explain how completely inappropriate and dangerous this is to not only teach a seven year old but make it sound like it's just something people do like going to the hairdressers for a change of colour.

You don’t need to be “politically correct” in letting school know that you won’t tolerate your child being taught this dangerous nonsense. You don’t need to mince your words or err on the side of being polite: you have every right to be furious and to let them know this. They should be left in no doubt that what her teacher has done is totally inappropriate and potentially harmful.

@FrancescaContini I absolutely agree but I'm worried that as per this new guidance:

Yet parents who raise concerns about any of this will be fobbed off. The Scottish guidance says such parents may simply have ‘inaccurate or incomplete information’.

It's in the back of my head that the school (or the head?) is some kind of trans rights activist and everything I say (if I don't bow down and lay offerings at their feet) will be written off because I have "inaccurate information". They'll then mark me as the transphobe parent and take steps to "safeguard" by daughter by further educating her / supporting her wellbeing and letting her change her name / pronouns etc without my consent.

But the more I think about it, maybe I'm being ridiculous. I have a fantastic relationship with my daughter and I highly doubt she wouldn't tell me. And at this stage I am actually willing to fight up the chain to change schools and if its not possible and they refuse to make any changes, despite me going to my MP, then I'll pull her out and homeschool her until Scot Gov wake up. That's absolutely NOT what I want to happen but if this is genuinely what we've come to - they're teaching 7 year olds including those with ASD and ADHD they are born in the wrong bodies because they like football or barbies and can have surgery to fix this - I feel like I'd never forgive myself if she went down this path and I didn't stop it.

So yeah I think you are probably right - I should just be totally honest about how angry I am.

[Why I have suspicions the head is maybe TRA / politically involved or at the least ignorant - I mentioned in an anonymous survey the fact their policy document had gotten the Equality Act wrong - they'd switched sex for gender - and said there was a difference, language is important, and sex is the protected characteristic. The three times I've contacted / been contacted by the school it's been about misogyny shown to my daughter (the worst one where she was held down and kissed against her will, the girls stood behind her and said the boy was a creep / rapist and that it was sexual assault - and my daughter was the one told off for bullying). I highlighted this incident happened because of her sex and it should be changed, and it still hasn't been.]

We are also in Scotland.
DD's are also being taught utter shite.

All you can do is keep countering it at home. Facts, facts, facts.

They've even had a "gender inclusivity day" or some such utter bollocks at the school, were asked to go in wearing rainbow colours etc.
I've given permission for my DDs to tell the teachers, when asked, that they think it's all bullshit.
In those words.

@fghjk

So I have spoken to DD this morning and tried to get a fuller picture of what she was actually told / taught (because I was half hoping the surgery part was something another child had maybe picked up from Tiktok or Youtube or something).

But no, it was definitely the teacher.

She said the teacher told them this was the first time children were getting this kind of education in school, and we're the first country to do this and they should all be really proud of that.

I asked specifically about the surgery and she talked about getting her "boobs" taken away when she grows up so she can be a boy.

I felt like I had to explain that if I got breast cancer, I'd have to have surgery to remove my boobs too, would that make me a man? Would I still be her mum? She seemed to accept that.

Then I was asking more about why she wanted to be a boy and she couldn't really give me an answer. I asked what made her think it would be better to have a penis than what she has now? Then we talked about sex and gender and how my best friend growing up wore tracksuits (before that was fashionable) and played football professionally and was your typical tomboy (like her) but she's still a she and it's never stopped her doing anything the boys can do. I gave her the whole "Mum is an engineer - "a man's job" according to these gender stereotypes - one woman in a team of eleven men, but does that mean I was born in the wrong body and should have changed my sex because I liked "the thing boys liked".

I think there's going to be a whole lot more discussion around this. I talked as age appropriately as possible about how dangerous surgery can be and how I think its better for people to try to be happy and focus on their talents, strengths, personality, passions etc than on their genitals.

I really feel like I can't NOT talk to the school about this but apparently it's coming from the government??

From what I can see on Twitter and news articles, if parents are seen as a roadblock in "transitioning" or words to that effect, they are affecting the child's wellbeing and it's acceptable to just bypass the parent?

Her wellbeing (in regards to her body) was absolutely fine before she was given this ridiculous lesson yesterday that based on nothing but ideology and is far, far, too complex for a seven year old to understand. (Let alone a 7 year old who is showing all the signs of ADHD hyperactive type and on the waiting list for diagnosis... Strongly suspect because I had / have it myself)

Holy moly, OP.

This is a teacher who is really badly informed and/or trying to push a dangerous agenda.

It is not what is on the curriculum. Go straigth to the source, the RSHP docs I linked to above. That is what should be taught.

I've given permission for my DDs to tell the teachers, when asked, that they think it's all bullshit.
In those words.

Yes, I've done the same, but it then leads to a situation where teachers and teaching are undermined. And I want to be able to support both the school and the curriculum.

I check the RSHP guidelines every so often and most of it is clear and sensible. There's a decent amount of challenging stereotypes, respect, tolerance, as well as learning useful and important information about biology etc.

Unscientific, politically loaded ideology is not to be pushed on children.

I’d go in and I’d make an official complaint about that teacher. Disgusting - she should be neutral, and casually encouraging children to mutilate themselves, as well as lying and conflating sex and gender is disgraceful.

I’d ask why she was basically saying a woman who had a double mastectomy was now a man; what exactly she meant by someone ‘feeling like a man’; and why she was pushing her c**tish beliefs onto children instead of encouraging them that they could do and be what they want whatever she they are.

[quote FemaleAndLearning]I would email for clarification to keep a paper trail. They will likely respond with a phone call so send a follow up email to summarise the conversation. This is so wrong and unnecessary. I'm not familiar with Scottish education but for my primary school they took the decision not to go above and beyond the guidance. Schools have a choice to go above and beyond. If there is something similar in Scotland you could ask why they decided to go above and beyond, how did they justify this? There would most likely be cost implications for going above and beyond. Then follow up.

Google phallophasty and the success rates. Gender identity is a belief and they have taught your child as if it is fact and that is indoctrination and not politically impartial.
As others have said read Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend www.transgendertrend.com/ to help with your follow up.
This is a real good film for some background for you.

[/quote]

I would do this and I would absolutely follow this up.

It was this simple idea that caused havoc with a child I taught with autism who liked "stereotypically girl things." He had absolutely no body issues or issues with his name at all. It caused so much distress. (Tavistock back then we're v helpful and he had the right support.)

They maybe inadvertently causing future 'gender dysphoria'. Most girls don't have breasts at 7 so when they start budding they may react really bad to it. I just find it all so insidious.

OP don't waste your time research medical outcomes, as others have said go the curriculum guidelines. And remind them once again they are misrepresentating the EqAct 2010 if they are still using gender instead of sex. If they still don't change this then do a formal complaint (this will be on their website) and copy OFSTED in.

I had to do this recently when there was a rumour that a 6ft boy who is now called Jess was using the girls toilets and changing facilities. I just reminded them of the law. I was worried about doing this as one of my girls is SEND and the other hasn't attended school for 2 years, but there were no repercussions.
You are an engineer so it will be easy for you to craft a logical, factual letter.

I would be absolutely furious and I would definitely speak to the school. I would ask to speak to the PSHE lead, the head teacher and complain to the governors.
I would get all the relevant resources from Safe Schools Alliance and Transgender Trend and lay it all out.

Good advice.

1. the responses in this thread about Ofsted, Chairs of Governors, PSHE curriculum etc are a bit annoying. The OP has said she’s in Scotland. We have a different set of institutions here. And we have an utterly captured “government” led by Nicola (she/her) and a subservient and equally captured civil service.

2. looking at the RSHP website, in the stages beyond “early” there are utterly contradictory statements, on the one hand saying that sex-based stereotypes are bad, but on the other parroting gender ideology with no rational reading other than that “gender” is directly linked to sex-based stereotypes.

I’ll search this forum but I wonder if anyone (FPFW?) has properly dissected the RSHP guidelines?

I absolutely would complain to the school.

I've already explained to my DC they can't change sex but as it's just as good to be a boy as a girl and vice versa it doesn't matter. Also they can like anything they want, it doesn't matter if it's seen as boy or girl things.

So far so good.

Thanks for all the help. I've typed something up and I'm just letting it simmer for a bit before sending.

I've framed this is as: Anger this was done, sadness at the effects and discussions it's caused, and a total loss of trust in the school's ability to safeguard my children and their wellbeing.

Because honestly that is how I feel.

I've said I hoped there had been a misunderstanding somewhere. (I'm not sure how misunderstood you'd have to be to tell a 7 year old she can chop her boobs off, but I mostly said that so I can absolutely take it further if I feel they're fobbing me off).

I did search the RSHP for their stage, and under both "Het and LGB" and "Boys and Girls" I found exactly what I expected and what I've always taught them. Men can love men, some families have two mums, boys and girls can cry, and boys and girls can be mechanics.

So I've asked them to refer me to the slide where it explains what a gender is, how you'd know if your gender was wrong, and the types of surgery available to correct it.

I've asked them to provide the materials if not included above.

What if any training the teachers had on the delivery of this material.

If they are engaged with any charities or organisations for guidance on resources, and who they are.

Why they've still not updated the mistake in the Equality Act

What - if anything - they intend to do about my concerns.

I wanted to add something about the new guidance but I wasn't sure how to word it without drawing attention to the fact the entire guidance appears to be 100% about affirmation - part of which would be... surgery! So I've left it out, despite wanting to know their stance on it so I can quiz them about the massive safeguarding failures / culture of secrecy it promotes. Are they going to apply it to my daughter who was happy on Thursday yet thinks she should be a boy because she likes football on Friday, or are they going to deal with these issues with common sense I don't fully believe they possess.

Please tell me you are not a teacher?

Not a teacher! Can I ask why you wanted me to confirm this?

@fghjk

Not a teacher! Can I ask why you wanted me to confirm this?

Sorry OP, was just typing a follow up confirming my post was to @autie not you, for spouting utter nonsense about education having to be "inclusive". Facts don't need to be inclusive, they just need to be FACTUAL, we shouldn't be teaching our children things that simply aren't true.

Unfortunately my quote tweet doesn't seem to work so my posts often make no sense

Ahhh that makes sense

@MidsomerMurmurs

1) the responses in this thread about Ofsted, Chairs of Governors, PSHE curriculum etc are a bit annoying. The OP has said she’s in Scotland. We have a different set of institutions here. And we have an utterly captured “government” led by Nicola (she/her) and a subservient and equally captured civil service.

2. looking at the RSHP website, in the stages beyond “early” there are utterly contradictory statements, on the one hand saying that sex-based stereotypes are bad, but on the other parroting gender ideology with no rational reading other than that “gender” is directly linked to sex-based stereotypes.

I’ll search this forum but I wonder if anyone (FPFW?) has properly dissected the RSHP guidelines?

Not forensically; Ive not had time. I just check them for any egregious kak. As you know, we're not going to get away with zero mention of 'gender' as it's the ScotGov's favourite baffling pet project, so I am going on the basis that most of the info is okay, and innoculating my kids about the gender stuff pre-emptively.

Your draft email structure looks great OP.

My apologies for not knowing the Scottish system what is your equivalent of OFSTED if there is one?

The OP is in Scotland and the rules are different there. THe government is completely captured which does weaken her position in complaining. I absolutely think you should complain OP, but the sad fact is, however polite, politically correct, careful you are, there will be people who brand you a bigot. That's reason enough to not mince your words IMHO and go in full bore. I don't know if For Women Scotland have any resources around education? Worth looking at their website or contacting them.

Just seen your draft email plan. Looks good.

Good work OP. This example highlights the core root of the problem and this might be something you want to add. That we have spent years telling girls they can do anything and they are not prevented from liking maths or engineering or climbing trees because they are a girl. Now this teacher has come along and said the opposite - if you like those things as a girl then actually it means you are a boy and need life altering surgery to become one. The teacher is saying girls cannot like maths or engineering or climbing trees. That is the sexism at the heart of this.

That is the sexism at the heart of this.

And trying to explain it to children reveals it, because all the postmodern nonsense has to be stripped away, and all you're left with is the the rotten regressive core - the fundamental point that the children latch onto.