Would you say anything?

[fghjk]

My DD is 7 and what I can only describe as a VERY young 7 due to missing so much school over the last couple of years. She came home today and told me she learned about 'men who love men' - fine - and "men who become girls".

Men can become girls?

Yeah? The teacher said we can just get surgery when we're older. So I can be a boy if I want to. They just told us to talk to our parents. Can I be a boy?

Why do you need to be a boy? I thought you were a tomboy? Why wouldn't you want to be a girl? Girls can do whatever boys can do etc etc.

On and on, back and forth (I'm sure some posters will recognise this).

I went through it with her older sister when she came home aged 10 and attempted to "educate" me. She knows what is what now, but that was a week of non-stop discussion I had no idea was happening until it happened. She thought sex and gender were interchangeable. She thought it was "a feeling". She could not understand why women needed their own spaces and it took telling her about my own experiences (which I didn't really want to do) to convince her.

But... seven? SEVEN?

What adult in their right mind tells a seven year old they can have their genitals removed when they grow up? (Did they mention how many of these surgeries are actually done successfully, I wonder? Highly doubt it!)

I really want to ask if this is actually what happened and this was actually what she was told. Can I? Should I? I realise that would out me as a TERF, but at this stage I honestly don't care? I genuinely believe if she HAS to have this education then there are age appropriate ways to give it which doesn't involve seven year olds being told they can chop off their genitals (or have ones stitched on?!) when they grow up -- they just need to ask mummy and daddy first.

Or am I completely overreacting and this is just the way they're being educated these days? We are in Scotland where apparently the government believes 4 year olds should have their pronouns respected... so I don't even know if this was the teacher either majorly fucking up, or furthering her own agenda, or if this is actually the curriculum these days?

I'm just seriously annoyed that yet again there was no warning and it's putting ideas into young heads that A) they can't even understand and B) really does not matter. It feels like they're being indoctrinated into a religion I don't believe in and (certainly in my eldest's case) being taught that non-believers are wrong and going to hell.

She's always been a bit of a 'tomboy'... into football, all her friends are boys, paw patrol for years and hasn't ever looked twice at a barbie. But even at five, she was the one trying to explain to her ten year old sister who came home full of the gender nonsense that "girls can like boy stuff - it doesn't make them boys!!" and now, one sex education lesson later, she thinks she's a bloody boy. And she can just get surgery when she's older to make her a boy 'for real' 😧.

Does anyone have some practical advice on what I can do?

[quote FusionChefGeoff]@autienotnaughty because it's not true?

You can't become a boy.

You can have surgery to attempt to recreate something that looks a bit like a penis and you can remove your breasts.

But you cannot become a boy.

Of course we have to challenge if our kids are being taught things that simply aren't true![/quote]
That's one opinion but the more common inclusive opinion is that gender can be different to body parts. So a 'woman' can feel like a man inspite of having breasts and a vagina

When my children were small, one of them had a vicar's wife as a class teacher. I had to have a stern conversation with this (well-meaning, albeit imho, essentially bonkers) woman at one point. Something like as follows:

"Some people believe they have immortal souls, but we in our family do not. Actually, we think there is no such thing as an immortal soul, and that such things are just impossible nonsense. So please, teacher, do not tell my child her grandad will never really die, even if you believe that to be true ... If you do, I will be on you like a ton of bricks, because you do not have the right to indoctrinate my child against my wishes, particularly about important matters of belief like this. Is that clear?"

((Attempted, possibly unsuccessful) friendly, but stern, no-nonsense smile: "... Of course we all respect other people's rights to their beliefs, however silly we might think them, don't we? You can tell her that, and I will too.")

.

Now what goes around comes around, and if the necessity were to arise I have suggested to this child, now a parent herself something along the same lines wrt a grandchild and her (well-meaning ...) teacher:

"Some people believe they have gender identities, but we in our family do not. Actually we think there is no such thing as a gender identity, and that such things are just impossible nonsense. So please, teacher, do not tell my child her uncle can change sex and become an aunty, even if you believe that to be true ... If you do, I will be on you like a ton of bricks, because you do not have the right to indoctrinate my child against my wishes, particularly about important matters of belief like this. Is that clear?"

(Friendly, but stern, no-nonsense smile: "... Of course we all respect other people's rights to their beliefs, however silly we might think them, don't we? You can tell her that, and I will too.")

.

I have suggested, also, my daughter tell the teacher the 'immortal soul' story from her childhood (albeit she knew little of it at the time, of course), to frame the matter and make the points that (1) belief in gender identity is relevantly similar to religious belief; and (2) it is established, at least in what we might call the 'civilised' world, that teachers ought not are not allowed -- to indoctrinate children in religious-type beliefs their parents do not share. Please, anyone, feel free also to use it similarly.

rshp.scot/first-level/

Nothing in here remotely resembling what your DD has been told. Yes, I would be asking questions and possibly making a complaint.

• so to answer your question, no that's not the curriculum and yes you should be complaining.

Teaching children dissociation from their own physical reality isn't inclusive to me but incredibly damaging. Almost assuming that feeling alienated from your body is normal.

@autienotnaughty

You seem very determined your children should think the same as you. Why not let them learn, form their own opinions and be there to quide and educate rather than enforce?

Indoctrination is not really letting a child form their own opinions.

Everyone is aware at this point that those who disagree with the ideological view point that you can become the other sex or chose from one of 100 genders are facing "consequences". It is not fair for children of 7 to have to face the consequences of disagreeing with their teacher.

@autienotnaughty

You seem very determined your children should think the same as you. Why not let them learn, form their own opinions and be there to quide and educate rather than enforce?

Children aged 7 may still wet the bed. Many of them will still believe in Father Christmas.

Learning must be age appropriate.

Facts must be sorted from fiction.

That's one opinion but the more common inclusive opinion is that gender can be different to body parts. So a 'woman' can feel like a man inspite of having breasts and a vagina

Gender is nothing but sexist societal stereotypes imposed on women and girls to diminish their humanity and stifle their potential. You might be happy for your children to be brainwashed into thinking gender crap is meaningful, but some of us want more for our children.

That's one opinion but the more common inclusive opinion is that gender can be different to body parts. So a 'woman' can feel like a man inspite of having breasts and a vagina.

She’s still a woman though, even if she has a double-mastectomy and takes hormones that have dangerous side effects.

So why not applaud women who act outside of stereotypes for their sex rather than insist they’re actually a man when they’re CLEARLY not ever going to change sex.

It’s gaslighting and it’s dangerous.

I’ve spoken to my kids’ school even though they haven't gone anywhere near as far as this. I just said, how would you answer if a child asked you ‘what is a girl?’ or ‘how do I know I’m not a girl?’. The lovely deputy head said, hmm yes, that is a very good question, food for thought. All materials from Stonewall when I asked. We have to keep speaking up. No way would I allow them to go unchallenged if they are teaching way out batshit non-factual stuff and they need to be clear on the distinction between fact and belief. I also said that we are supposed to be teaching our kids to be critical and independent thinkers, so you should be ready for these questions and just be sure you have an answer. I hope it’s at least made them re evaluate.

That's one opinion but the more common inclusive opinion is that gender can be different to body parts. So a 'woman' can feel like a man inspite of having breasts and a vagina

I be willing to bet @autienotnaughty that you can't think of one single way a woman can 'feel like a man' without revealing the sexism inherent in the very concept.

When DD had this going on, I told her there are only 2 sexes, male and female. But gender is on a sliding scale from feminine to masculine, and anyone of either sex can be anywhere on this spectrum, and it may differ from day to day depending on how they are feeling. So noone is born in the wrong body, it's how they feel at any given time. She was more than happy with this explanation, hopefully she still is.

So a 'woman' can feel like a man inspite of having breasts and a vagina

How are you defining 'woman' and 'man' in this sentence? I'll happily accept it as true if there is a clear, non-circular definition that works - unless it relies on sex role stereotypes, but even if so, it'd be good to have that clarified, @autienotnaughty

I have zero expectations that you are able to provide definitions for your own statement, but one day it'd be great to be proven wrong.

To answer the original question "Would you say anything?" yes, I would say something. In fact I would find it impossible to NOT say something. I stormed into my kid's schools back in the day for lesser things than this. I would be outraged.

Hi, sorry I didn't mean to post and run, was just lying awake thinking about this last night and had a very busy morning. Thank you for all the replies (going through them and responding now).

When the topic came up with my DD I said to her that one can never change sex and if you are born a girl you will always be a girl. She agreed with me.
Mind you, she is a bit older and replied with "but there are different genders" to which I said OK - as she is passionate about the subject and her friend is NB.

Almost the exact same discussion with my eldest DD but she was 10 and the time and really quite mature/ logical for her age. We had the same kinda discussions on gender because her best friend came out as "demiboy". But I think she kinda came to her own conclusions after the BF and their group started with the neo-pronoun thing. Identifying as Zse etc. Too much for DD and she doesn't talk to that group anymore.

I just think there is such a massive difference between their comprehension, a very mature 10yo and a very immature 7yo...

I'm not sure if gullible is the word but a good example: I've always taught them about different religions and how we need to respect what other people believe. Christians believe X. Muslims believe Y. Mum believes Z but you can believe whatever you want.

She came home from a holiday club that didn't really make the full extent of their... christian work(?) clear and cried the entire night that I'm going to hell if I don't repent for my sins and embrace the Lord. Two years later, she's still a Christian. Which is fine, but that was most definitely the turning point and I would have much rather she'd been able to draw her own conclusions.

@TheMissingMango

I'd be tempted to print out some graphic photos of sex change operations and mastectomies, lay them on the table in front of the headteacher and ask why they are promoting them to my child.

Yes this. Along with the long term effects of hormone treatments.

I’d too would be f-ing fuming.

And this is more likely to effect girls going through puberty than boys. It’s utterly horrific.

Not read the full thread so don’t know what’s been mentioned but safe schools alliance may have some good information OP.

So I have spoken to DD this morning and tried to get a fuller picture of what she was actually told / taught (because I was half hoping the surgery part was something another child had maybe picked up from Tiktok or Youtube or something).

But no, it was definitely the teacher.

She said the teacher told them this was the first time children were getting this kind of education in school, and we're the first country to do this and they should all be really proud of that.

I asked specifically about the surgery and she talked about getting her "boobs" taken away when she grows up so she can be a boy.

I felt like I had to explain that if I got breast cancer, I'd have to have surgery to remove my boobs too, would that make me a man? Would I still be her mum? She seemed to accept that.

Then I was asking more about why she wanted to be a boy and she couldn't really give me an answer. I asked what made her think it would be better to have a penis than what she has now? Then we talked about sex and gender and how my best friend growing up wore tracksuits (before that was fashionable) and played football professionally and was your typical tomboy (like her) but she's still a she and it's never stopped her doing anything the boys can do. I gave her the whole "Mum is an engineer - "a man's job" according to these gender stereotypes - one woman in a team of eleven men, but does that mean I was born in the wrong body and should have changed my sex because I liked "the thing boys liked".

I think there's going to be a whole lot more discussion around this. I talked as age appropriately as possible about how dangerous surgery can be and how I think its better for people to try to be happy and focus on their talents, strengths, personality, passions etc than on their genitals.

I really feel like I can't NOT talk to the school about this but apparently it's coming from the government??

From what I can see on Twitter and news articles, if parents are seen as a roadblock in "transitioning" or words to that effect, they are affecting the child's wellbeing and it's acceptable to just bypass the parent?

Her wellbeing (in regards to her body) was absolutely fine before she was given this ridiculous lesson yesterday that based on nothing but ideology and is far, far, too complex for a seven year old to understand. (Let alone a 7 year old who is showing all the signs of ADHD hyperactive type and on the waiting list for diagnosis... Strongly suspect because I had / have it myself)

I'd complain to the school for advocating FGM

That's basically what it feels like to be honest! I am going to find some statistics on just how many of these surgeries are successful (I can't remember the number but I heard the vast majority of penises need to be done at least twice? Desperately trying to remember where I read / heard it but I'm sure it was a podcast. Don't many of them actually start "dying" while still attached to your body, almost like a frostbitten toe?)

I'll do as much research as possible and then try to decide what the best move would be.

I think I need to find out if this is the actual curriculum coming from the gov, or the school itself taking it further than they need to (they have form for this - been in national papers etc for their gender agenda. Unfortunately in Scotland kids go to their local school so I don't really have a choice in the matter).

But knowing if this is school or gov might inform my next steps, I guess.

@samsalmon

I’ve spoken to my kids’ school even though they haven't gone anywhere near as far as this. I just said, how would you answer if a child asked you ‘what is a girl?’ or ‘how do I know I’m not a girl?’. The lovely deputy head said, hmm yes, that is a very good question, food for thought. All materials from Stonewall when I asked. We have to keep speaking up. No way would I allow them to go unchallenged if they are teaching way out batshit non-factual stuff and they need to be clear on the distinction between fact and belief. I also said that we are supposed to be teaching our kids to be critical and independent thinkers, so you should be ready for these questions and just be sure you have an answer. I hope it’s at least made them re evaluate.

Request that they use nothing produced by Stonewall. Public bodies are leaving SW in droves. - the House of Lords, most recently. I’m sure someone more knowledgeable can help on this issue: SW were deemed last summer to have misprepresented (deliberately??) the law by a legal team who were investigating cancel culture at the University of Essex.

You seem very determined your children should think the same as you. Why not let them learn, form their own opinions and be there to guide and educate rather than enforce?

Children don't get their opinions from nowhere. They get them from what they see, hear and read. However, the fact that people cannot change sex is just that - a fact, not an opinion. So yes, I'd be pretty determined that a school shouldn't be telling my 7yo blatant lies.

@fghjk

So I have spoken to DD this morning and tried to get a fuller picture of what she was actually told / taught (because I was half hoping the surgery part was something another child had maybe picked up from Tiktok or Youtube or something).

But no, it was definitely the teacher.

She said the teacher told them this was the first time children were getting this kind of education in school, and we're the first country to do this and they should all be really proud of that.

I asked specifically about the surgery and she talked about getting her "boobs" taken away when she grows up so she can be a boy.

I felt like I had to explain that if I got breast cancer, I'd have to have surgery to remove my boobs too, would that make me a man? Would I still be her mum? She seemed to accept that.

Then I was asking more about why she wanted to be a boy and she couldn't really give me an answer. I asked what made her think it would be better to have a penis than what she has now? Then we talked about sex and gender and how my best friend growing up wore tracksuits (before that was fashionable) and played football professionally and was your typical tomboy (like her) but she's still a she and it's never stopped her doing anything the boys can do. I gave her the whole "Mum is an engineer - "a man's job" according to these gender stereotypes - one woman in a team of eleven men, but does that mean I was born in the wrong body and should have changed my sex because I liked "the thing boys liked".

I think there's going to be a whole lot more discussion around this. I talked as age appropriately as possible about how dangerous surgery can be and how I think its better for people to try to be happy and focus on their talents, strengths, personality, passions etc than on their genitals.

I really feel like I can't NOT talk to the school about this but apparently it's coming from the government??

From what I can see on Twitter and news articles, if parents are seen as a roadblock in "transitioning" or words to that effect, they are affecting the child's wellbeing and it's acceptable to just bypass the parent?

Her wellbeing (in regards to her body) was absolutely fine before she was given this ridiculous lesson yesterday that based on nothing but ideology and is far, far, too complex for a seven year old to understand. (Let alone a 7 year old who is showing all the signs of ADHD hyperactive type and on the waiting list for diagnosis... Strongly suspect because I had / have it myself)

The teacher is insane. Honestly, I would go ballistic. Telling seven year old girls that they can get their breasts removed if they want to be a boy??!!?? WTF?

The DofE specifically says that schools are not allowed to AFFIRM wrt this issue.

Ask to see the school’s PSHE syllabus. Ask to view all the materials. Go through them against the DofE advice and find the (no doubt many) anomalies in the syllabus against government guidelines. Go to the head, the governors, the LEA.

I feel sick at the idea of teachers - trusted, supposedly clever individuals - spouting this utter BS to seven-year-olds.

@FrancescaContini I did say that I thought SW as an organisation is on very sticky ground because if recent events and I suggested the school look at alternative resources, which they said they would do. I speak as someone old enough to remember SW and its amazing campaigning back in the day.

Safe Schools Alliance is a good website for accurate info.

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/schools-resources-and-policies/

You seem very determined your children should think the same as you. Why not let them learn, form their own opinions and be there to quide and educate rather than enforce?

Not at all! If they want to teach this as "some
people believe X" and "some people believe Y" with the focus being on we treat everyone with respect and kindness - FINE!

Though I must say I think seven is a bit young for anything other than the most basic bits of this and the focus should really be 99% on treating people fairly and kindly however they look / dress / love and whatever they believe.

This isn't what happened. My daughter was given an overview of sex and gender which she appears to now understand as interchangeable, and is under the impression that because she likes football, has 3 boys as her best friends, is a fast runner etc she was born in the wrong body and can have surgery to fix this when she's older.

She wasn't saying any of the day before yesterday. She knew girls can like football and Mums can be engineers. She actually told her sister exactly this when she was 5 and her sister was coming home from school trying to tell us she must be non-binary because she doesn't like makeup!!

Definitely complain. This sounds like a teacher pushing her own agenda, absolutely unacceptable. The head may not even know this is what is being taught. Reminds me of a strange RE teacher at DS primary school who was telling all the kids that 'God made the world in 7 days'. DS asked about evolution, good lad! I complained and the school agreed beliefs shouldn't be taught as fact.