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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maternity Services Scandal at Shrewsbury - Tonight's Panorama

45 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 20:11

Tonight's Panorama is about how poor care in maternity services at the hospital led to the deaths and serious injury to both mothers and babies.

There is a BBC article on it here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60434299
Mothers who helped uncover the biggest NHS maternity scandal

The full report into the scandal is due next month.

The article covers a lot of different issues but one of the key ones for me is this:

That criticism, Panorama can reveal, did lead the family's lawyer to raise in court whether there was "any kind of inbuilt policy or inbuilt bias towards trying to achieve natural births in as many cases as possible". The question also built on inquiries made by Kathryn's parents, Phil and Sonia. "I wondered about the fact that I'd been left so long before going to C-section," said Sonia. "I did a lot of research and found out that Shrewsbury Hospital had the lowest rate of C-sections in the whole of the UK."

Most of the cases the Ockenden review is examining date from 2000-2019. In their interim report, the essence of Sonia Leigh's concerns was strongly highlighted. The inquiry found that rates of caesarean sections at the trust in Shropshire were up to 12% lower than the England average for the period they are examining.

The trust's reputation for unusually high numbers of vaginal births was known. Panorama has discovered that just a month before Kathryn Leigh's inquest, a parliamentary hearing was held to discuss concerns about the rising number of caesarean births across England.

There was concern that child birth was being over-medicalised, and that too many women were having to undergo unnecessary surgical procedures, which like any operation carries risk. It also costs more money.

One hospital was praised for its approach however - the Royal Shrewsbury. At the time, its caesarean levels were half the England average, and a team from the hospital travelled to London.

In the evidence session, seen by Panorama, the then clinical director of the Royal Shrewsbury told MPs: "The culture of our organisation is that we have low intervention rates and once that is known we attract both midwives and obstetricians who like to practise in that way."

His colleague, the manager of women's service at the time, added that midwives who had worked elsewhere "almost need retraining to be able to work in Shropshire. We have recruited people who are like minded. If you want to keep something going and you believe in it, you do not want to employ people who do not believe in what you believe in.

Discussing the initial findings of her inquiry, Donna Ockenden told Panorama, "There were cases where an earlier recourse to caesarean section rather than a persistence towards a normal delivery may well have led to a better outcome for mother or baby or both. Low caesarean section rates were a prize." And the trust had been lauded for them.

The push for natural births at all costs was one of the key findings of the report into Morecambe Bay Trust Scandal.

This week the NHS changed their advice on CS. They decided that they would drop the target rate.

Prior to this, Trusts could lose funding if they missed the target. This had two effects:
Women were pushed to have a VB long after was safe often resulting in traumatic injuries.
Even though the NICE guidance said that any woman who wanted a maternal request CS should have, this was often barred from that in practice as Trusts aimed to meet their target.

Now, this particularly upsets me because the arbitary target for CS is something I've been banging on about on MN for years. Like over a decade. My philosophy has been that women should get the best and most appropriate care for their circumstance and ideology has no place in maternity. Method of delivery is irrelevant.

Some background - the idea that there was an optimum level for CS stemmed from ideological belief that was dominating over actual science. There is a notorious study by WHO that concluded that a planned ELCS were much less safe than planned VB. Except that when you looked at the data the numbers contained in the study said quite the reverse. None the less, WHO recommended that the % of CS be limited and that there should be a target. This was later dropped a few years later as it became clear that this recommendation was a pile of arse.

And yet the NHS decided that they should still have a target. They picked a figure out of thin air without any clinical data to support the decision. And that shaped a lot of maternity care until this week.

Anyway, whats REALLY upset me about the Royal Shrewsbury report is the fact it was always so bloody obvious to ANYONE who looked at the data available and thought 'hang on, whats going on here?'.

Indeed someone did. Me.

My thread from 2016 on the 'outlier' data that troubled me
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childbirth/2598442-New-Data-Comparing-Hospitals-and-Outcomes-in-Childbirth

And then when it became obvious that there was a problem at the Royal Shrewbury, this data was the first thing that sprung to mind for me. I started this thread in 2018:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370657-Shrewsbury-and-Telford-Hospital-Trust-with-significantly-lower-CS-rate-in-scandal

To see it put in black and white today after the annoucement this week axing the target has really upset me. God knows how the poor women and babies who got caught up in this feel. My heart goes out to them.

I am NOT a statician. I am not an expert of any kind. But these numbers immediately triggered my sense that something was amiss and needed investigating. My initial concern was BEFORE the death of one of the babies of the two women who got the ball rolling on the inquiry.

It was that bloody obvious

People further up the NHS food chain, RCOG and the NMC should be hauled over the coals on this. It should have been questioned much much sooner. It wasn't. With devastating consequences.

Instead I am betting the Royal Shrewsbury alone will be criticised.

Kayleigh Griffith and Rhiannon Davies, you are my absoluete heroines. I hope that you have changed maternity services in this country once and for all.
Flowers Flowers Flowers

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MissMinutes24 · 23/02/2022 20:35

The BBC article was devastating to read

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 20:39

Its just awful isn't it?

I really do think after the Morecambe Bay Scandal this situation should NEVER have continued.

People in power completely FAILED to ask the questions they should have.

It could have been stopped so much earlier.

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Goatsaregreat · 23/02/2022 20:41

Thank you for this RedToothBrush It is yet another matter of enduring shame for the NHS that maternity services are persistently so inadequate, under resourced and insensitive to the needs and safety of pregnant women with particular additional and unaddressed dangers to women of colour and their babies.

delurkasaurus · 23/02/2022 20:50

I'm undecided whether to watch this. I am worried I might find it too upsetting albeit I'm nowhere near in the same situation as these poor women and their babies.

I strongly suspect that if there were ever a national inquiry into maternity services and care, people would be appalled to discover what many MNers know from experience.

For example how utterly lacking the support is to BF. Or for example the fact that it is impossible to pursue any aspect of maternity care - especially lower C-section rates - in isolation. So many things impact having one, that to put a target on it is stupid at best but outright dangerous and deadly at worst.

Thanks for the mums and their babies

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 20:50

@Goatsaregreat

Thank you for this RedToothBrush It is yet another matter of enduring shame for the NHS that maternity services are persistently so inadequate, under resourced and insensitive to the needs and safety of pregnant women with particular additional and unaddressed dangers to women of colour and their babies.
We have the data. We know there is a problem.

But people in power are repeatedly finaling to ask the right questions.

Yes this scandal STILL needs to be properly identified even now.

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RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 20:52

@delurkasaurus

I'm undecided whether to watch this. I am worried I might find it too upsetting albeit I'm nowhere near in the same situation as these poor women and their babies.

I strongly suspect that if there were ever a national inquiry into maternity services and care, people would be appalled to discover what many MNers know from experience.

For example how utterly lacking the support is to BF. Or for example the fact that it is impossible to pursue any aspect of maternity care - especially lower C-section rates - in isolation. So many things impact having one, that to put a target on it is stupid at best but outright dangerous and deadly at worst.

Thanks for the mums and their babies

You mean like the one in 2016? The one that MN invited us to comment on?

Already happened. And STILL this post dates that.

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Forestdweller11 · 23/02/2022 21:15

15 minutes in and this is heartbreaking.

Goatsaregreat · 23/02/2022 22:14

That was difficult to watch. Such courageous determined women and men. They shouldn't have had to fight like this.

ScrambledSmegs · 23/02/2022 22:39

A very difficult programme to watch. So many babies lives lost that could have been saved with proper care. A culture of not listening to women, and of lying after the fact. And the poor woman with that hideous birth injury - I was sobbing with her, just horrific.

I remember around the time I had my first DC there was a huge deal made in the media about rising CS rates. The 'too posh to push' narrative was everywhere. It looks like Shrewsbury & Telford took that idea to the extreme.

Redburnett · 23/02/2022 22:49

I found watching it very emotional as someone close to me nearly died as a result of poor care there back in the 1980s. The same problems existed then, lack of compassion, not listening to women, blaming mothers, inadequate medical care, dreadful culture. It is so shocking to find it went on and on.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 23/02/2022 23:40

@RedToothBrush, I always enjoy your passion and ability to be succinct.

it became clear that this recommendation was a pile of arse

I concur.

I'm heart sore for the families affected by the hubris, lack of critical thinking and skill of some people with egos.

It's quite confronting to have this on tonight while the appalling Adam Kaye misogyny-fest is trundling along.

bishophaha · 23/02/2022 23:44

Thanks for posting this, it's something that's often in my thoughts. I'll watch if I can stomach the sadness and frustration.

littlemisslozza · 23/02/2022 23:53

I had a near miss 15 years ago with that trust. Luckily my DS and I are still here. Our first DC and we naively thought it was normal but it's only in recent years that we understood the failings in the delivery and in care afterwards.

I don't think any midwives deliberately set out to be the way they were, but there was a culture of dismissing worries of pregnant women and they were also really short staffed on the three occasions I was there. I had ELCS for DC2&3 and should have had one with DS1. What was an emergency shouldn't have been.

I am full of respect for these families who have persevered with this and made them look in to this properly. I'm just sad so many families had to be affected before they finally admitted there was a problem.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2022 00:29

One of the things that DH noticed during the programme was the leaflet about natural births and the lady trying to distance her organisation away from the idea of how much they were trying to promote natural births (think she was from the NMC). He was absolutely right.

At the time this started there was a massive push to promote natural birth and the sense that lots of women felt somewhat pressured by it.

I think its other organisations which should have been asking questions but didn't that really didn't that gets me.

The data in the thread from 2016 clearly showed a very low rate of cs but a very high rate of forceps births. Which were significant outliers from the rest of the country.

Yet the assumption was made that this was a good thing. But no one thought to look at the rate of birth injuries to mother or baby. The data on birth injuries just wasn't recorded because it wasn't deemed important to note. Yet the rate of CS was.

This in itself comes from the notion of cs = bad vb = good. Without any credible data to back it up in terms of injuries.

Yet this has been something that has long been talked about on MN. How little birth injuries are talked about and I know Ive not easily found data to reflect this over the time when I was looking at this very keenly.

It isn't considered important enough to be keeping track of.

Generally speaking there seems to have been no proper oversight of how hospitals are comparing to each other. Any real outlier show automatically ring alarm bells. But it didn't because the hospital was producing the data that various groups wanted to see. The internal cover up culture really could have been spotted if the right questions had been asked.

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RedToothBrush · 24/02/2022 00:30

The Shrewsbury and Telford Trust gets panned in this documentary but the wider questions of accountability MUST be thought of and how outside organisations also failed here to identify an issue.

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littlemisslozza · 24/02/2022 00:40

@RedToothBrush oh yes, a CS was definitely seen as a failure and they were rationed. I hope that is no longer the feeling among pregnant women. I don't plan any more DC but I do shout loudly about my two wonderful ELCS and the relatively easy recoveries whenever people worry about them being more risky. Absolutely not compared to some 'natural' versions that can end in tragedy and take a long time to physically recover from. The dangers of these were hugely underplayed and I have many friends who also had birth injuries or near misses at the same trust. I'm still scarred by it mentally and probably always will be, knowing what could have happened. It was talking to doctor friends working elsewhere in the country that we realised our experience wasn't usual.

ChuckBerrysBoots · 24/02/2022 00:42

I haven’t watched Panorama but read the article this morning. This quote jumped out at me: Jo Mountfield, vice president of the RCOG, says it's "probably" because the patients are women. "I think women's health and research in this country should be given much higher priority. I think women's voices need to be heard much more loudly."

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2022 00:47

Just 'probably' says the head of organisation apparently dedicated to the wellbeing of women's health?

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vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 24/02/2022 01:25

@RedToothBrush

You've seen Dietz's work on forceps and the associated pelvic floor injuries?

I feel torn about it - of course no one whips out forceps without believing the baby is in immediate danger. I'm sure that if you have seen multiple still births in the course of your career you will err on the side of caution. I also think there is a need to look after the various clinicians who work in maternity services and consider whether they are traumatised and whether that impacts their critical thinking.

But, yes, birth injuries are not followed up, sometimes not diagnosed and there is a gap between the role of the obstetrician (mother and baby both alive for 12 hours after birth), and that of the midwife (mother and baby both alive, and mother not off her trolley with depression after 11 days) and the role of the health visitor (baby seems to be developing normally and no safeguarding risk) and the GP (what do you mean you've been shitting yourself since your baby was born - he's FIFTY YEARS OLD!)

fixing maternity services is the start of addressing 2000 years of medical misogyny.

LouEd26 · 24/02/2022 11:22

I always felt this happened to me in 2000.
Our baby survived and is now 22. He is diagnosed autistic and have always though he received brain damage during his birth.

It wasn’t in the place that was highlighted in the reports and haven’t ever felt I could report it as the hospital I question hasn’t ever been investigated but I do feel I should have had an emergency c section due to my son’s heartbeat slowly getting shallower and shallower until it stopped. He had his cord wrapped around his neck twice and the further he was closer to being born the closer he was to not making it.

I was talked to in great lengths about opting out of the c-section I had opted for in 2017. For nearly an hour I was told every con of my choice but on the birth of, my now 4 year old, the relief of my choice was overwhelming. He was born with a knot in his cord and the cord wrapped around his neck. The midwife attending him said “thank goodness you listened to your instincts, if you hadn’t…. Well, we don’t need to worry about that do we, your little boy is fine”
If you feel you need to do something, then follow what you feel. I was let down the first time and if I had listened to what I was being told last time, our little boy could have been severely disabled or worse than that.

InvisibleDragon · 24/02/2022 18:04

@RedToothBrush This 2020 paper has some useful terrifying stats on birth injury:
www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m3377/

It should be open access. And they have gathered data from hundreds of thousands of births in England. They look at the percentage of "complicated" births in first-time and subsequent births where vaginal delivery is attempted (IE excluding elective caesareans). "Complicated" births are ones in which any of the following happened:

  • instrumental delivery
  • emergency caesarean
  • obstetric anal sphincter injury
  • postpartum haemorrhage,
  • Apgar score of 7 or less at five minutes.

If you read the supplementary info, the majority of complicated births involve instrumental delivery or EMCS. Haemorrhage and low Apgar score are pretty rare.

For first time deliveries, even in the group with no risk factors, 43% of women have a complicated birth. For first time mothers with a risk factor associated with the current pregnancy, it's 64%.

I've attached screenshots of the relevant stats.

These figures have really shocked me. A simple vaginal delivery is routinely presented to pregnant women as the most likely outcome. And yet for first time births it's basically a coin flip whether you end up with a seriously bad outcome.

Maternity Services Scandal at Shrewsbury - Tonight's Panorama
Maternity Services Scandal at Shrewsbury - Tonight's Panorama
Goatsaregreat · 24/02/2022 20:46

That data InvisibleDragon Angry

it's unforgivable that maternity care is such a shambles.

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2022 21:00

Thanks for that data.

I didn't ever find anything as comprehensive as that but i did find enough to give me a fair idea that it was a lot higher than many women realise and that tended to be stacked up in particular groups - older women, non-white women etc.

To see it begin to be recorded and published is good, but it should be more widely available to women rather than just the medical establishment.

Public data helps accountability.

Those figure need to improve vastly.

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InvisibleDragon · 24/02/2022 21:35

Completely agree the stats should be more widely available. I think they are deliberately obfuscated tbh - midwives present data over all births not first time births for example, which drastically obscures how risky first time deliveries are.

It doesn't help that the people advocating for women are typically into the natural birth / doula world. They have no interest in accurately presenting statistics either -- too busy flogging a hypnobirthing course Confused

RedToothBrush · 24/02/2022 21:53

@InvisibleDragon

Completely agree the stats should be more widely available. I think they are deliberately obfuscated tbh - midwives present data over all births not first time births for example, which drastically obscures how risky first time deliveries are.

It doesn't help that the people advocating for women are typically into the natural birth / doula world. They have no interest in accurately presenting statistics either -- too busy flogging a hypnobirthing course Confused

See I think there is value in mindfulness in birth but it has to include realism.

Birth satisaction surveys come back saying that women who have a birth in line with expectations fair better psychologically after the fact. Even if they have a difficult birth.

We also know that women who are more relaxed have better outcomes generally speaking too. Injuries are associated with anxiety.

So if you have a 38 year old first time mother, having a difficult pregnancy with extreme anxiety present to you asking for an ELCS her chances of a having a birth which isn't physically traumatic are probably a lot less than a toss of the coin.

Birth is clearly about psychologically and physicality - both affect your chances of injury / post traumatic stress.

This is only recognised in an idealogical way that aligns with the 'intervention free' movement. And thats problematic.

This data is out there.

I think our failure to understand, learn from stuff in data and to spot problem through critical thinking is a huge issue for maternity care across the board.

I think we aren't using what we already know well enough.

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