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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maternity Services Scandal at Shrewsbury - Tonight's Panorama

45 replies

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2022 20:11

Tonight's Panorama is about how poor care in maternity services at the hospital led to the deaths and serious injury to both mothers and babies.

There is a BBC article on it here:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60434299
Mothers who helped uncover the biggest NHS maternity scandal

The full report into the scandal is due next month.

The article covers a lot of different issues but one of the key ones for me is this:

That criticism, Panorama can reveal, did lead the family's lawyer to raise in court whether there was "any kind of inbuilt policy or inbuilt bias towards trying to achieve natural births in as many cases as possible". The question also built on inquiries made by Kathryn's parents, Phil and Sonia. "I wondered about the fact that I'd been left so long before going to C-section," said Sonia. "I did a lot of research and found out that Shrewsbury Hospital had the lowest rate of C-sections in the whole of the UK."

Most of the cases the Ockenden review is examining date from 2000-2019. In their interim report, the essence of Sonia Leigh's concerns was strongly highlighted. The inquiry found that rates of caesarean sections at the trust in Shropshire were up to 12% lower than the England average for the period they are examining.

The trust's reputation for unusually high numbers of vaginal births was known. Panorama has discovered that just a month before Kathryn Leigh's inquest, a parliamentary hearing was held to discuss concerns about the rising number of caesarean births across England.

There was concern that child birth was being over-medicalised, and that too many women were having to undergo unnecessary surgical procedures, which like any operation carries risk. It also costs more money.

One hospital was praised for its approach however - the Royal Shrewsbury. At the time, its caesarean levels were half the England average, and a team from the hospital travelled to London.

In the evidence session, seen by Panorama, the then clinical director of the Royal Shrewsbury told MPs: "The culture of our organisation is that we have low intervention rates and once that is known we attract both midwives and obstetricians who like to practise in that way."

His colleague, the manager of women's service at the time, added that midwives who had worked elsewhere "almost need retraining to be able to work in Shropshire. We have recruited people who are like minded. If you want to keep something going and you believe in it, you do not want to employ people who do not believe in what you believe in.

Discussing the initial findings of her inquiry, Donna Ockenden told Panorama, "There were cases where an earlier recourse to caesarean section rather than a persistence towards a normal delivery may well have led to a better outcome for mother or baby or both. Low caesarean section rates were a prize." And the trust had been lauded for them.

The push for natural births at all costs was one of the key findings of the report into Morecambe Bay Trust Scandal.

This week the NHS changed their advice on CS. They decided that they would drop the target rate.

Prior to this, Trusts could lose funding if they missed the target. This had two effects:
Women were pushed to have a VB long after was safe often resulting in traumatic injuries.
Even though the NICE guidance said that any woman who wanted a maternal request CS should have, this was often barred from that in practice as Trusts aimed to meet their target.

Now, this particularly upsets me because the arbitary target for CS is something I've been banging on about on MN for years. Like over a decade. My philosophy has been that women should get the best and most appropriate care for their circumstance and ideology has no place in maternity. Method of delivery is irrelevant.

Some background - the idea that there was an optimum level for CS stemmed from ideological belief that was dominating over actual science. There is a notorious study by WHO that concluded that a planned ELCS were much less safe than planned VB. Except that when you looked at the data the numbers contained in the study said quite the reverse. None the less, WHO recommended that the % of CS be limited and that there should be a target. This was later dropped a few years later as it became clear that this recommendation was a pile of arse.

And yet the NHS decided that they should still have a target. They picked a figure out of thin air without any clinical data to support the decision. And that shaped a lot of maternity care until this week.

Anyway, whats REALLY upset me about the Royal Shrewsbury report is the fact it was always so bloody obvious to ANYONE who looked at the data available and thought 'hang on, whats going on here?'.

Indeed someone did. Me.

My thread from 2016 on the 'outlier' data that troubled me
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/childbirth/2598442-New-Data-Comparing-Hospitals-and-Outcomes-in-Childbirth

And then when it became obvious that there was a problem at the Royal Shrewbury, this data was the first thing that sprung to mind for me. I started this thread in 2018:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370657-Shrewsbury-and-Telford-Hospital-Trust-with-significantly-lower-CS-rate-in-scandal

To see it put in black and white today after the annoucement this week axing the target has really upset me. God knows how the poor women and babies who got caught up in this feel. My heart goes out to them.

I am NOT a statician. I am not an expert of any kind. But these numbers immediately triggered my sense that something was amiss and needed investigating. My initial concern was BEFORE the death of one of the babies of the two women who got the ball rolling on the inquiry.

It was that bloody obvious

People further up the NHS food chain, RCOG and the NMC should be hauled over the coals on this. It should have been questioned much much sooner. It wasn't. With devastating consequences.

Instead I am betting the Royal Shrewsbury alone will be criticised.

Kayleigh Griffith and Rhiannon Davies, you are my absoluete heroines. I hope that you have changed maternity services in this country once and for all.
Flowers Flowers Flowers

OP posts:
Ididanamechange · 24/02/2022 22:54

I was wondering if there was a thread on this. This is my trust, I had both of my babies in the princess royal in Telford-2017 and 2020. Its harrowing to watch but so far removed from experiences. My care during pregnancy and after the birth was wonderful and all of the midwives I met were great with me. I'm not defending them or trying to say it didn't happy its so, I don't know what the word is, frightening? To think this was going on whilst I was having my care. My heart aches for those families and babies

Catsstillrock · 24/02/2022 23:15

Hmmm I disagree @InvisibleDragon that all instrumental births are ‘a seriously bad outcome’.

My first delivery ended with a ventouse, episiotomy and PPH. But the recovery was better than from the ELCS I had with the second.

I don’t think it’s as simple as vaginal birth = bad, or instrumental delivery always = bad.

My no 1 issue with my first Labour was the lack of resources which sent it awry and triggered the cascade of intervention. With better care and facilités (a midwife who knew me well, who could have managed a very triggering issue they accidentally touched on which based me to freeze and my Labour to stall, and a birth pool) I’m pretty sure I would have delivered earlier, with not interventions or PPH. I will always regret not opting for a home birth.

ELCS was ok for the second and definitely better than the other options (they pitched early induction due to predicted size of the baby). I know too many people that had a three day induction ending in a CS.

The no 1 issue with maternity services is lack of resources.

Obstetricians and midwives simply cannot give good care when they are as under resourced as they are. That alone leads to bad outcomes (not enough time to check mothers with concerns, telling women in Labour ‘not to come in too early’ etc etc) which itself CREATES bad outcomes. We force labouring women to move to hospital mid labour. It’s exactly the wrong time and disrupts the process and then stalls Labour which leads to interventions.

If better resourced, maternity services would be better able to offer women personalised care. Get women settled with a midwife they know early in labour.

Supporting vaginal birth if that’s what they want, or an ELCS is that’s what they want.

Better post natal care and breast feeding support, better post birth recovery care for all mothers - physio for everyone. Ongoing support for longer. I think post natal mothers should not be discharged from outpatient support (which should address post north recovery, baby feeding, mental health as standard) until 6 months, maybe a year after birth for first time Mums.

Obstetrics is misogynist and needs serious overhaul.

And yes the measures are all wrong. Rate of c section is on its own meaningless.

Better measures would be:

  • outcomes for babies (rate of death, injury, life long disability as a consequence of birth)
  • outcomes for mothers (rate of birth injury / recovery outcome - better resourced, rates of PND, feed back from birthing mothers - did they feel listened to, wishes supported, well cared for?
Outcomes for mothers should be taken 1 year later.

With more resource and tracking the right things (long term outcomes for mothers and babies) we could have maternity services which supported and empowered all mothers however they give birth.

Catsstillrock · 24/02/2022 23:30

Agree @RedToothBrush

‘ So if you have a 38 year old first time mother, having a difficult pregnancy with extreme anxiety present to you asking for an ELCS her chances of a having a birth which isn't physically traumatic are probably a lot less than a toss of the coin.’

Yet many of these mothers feelings are dismissed as being silly / dramatic with a birthing approach imposed on them.

And also the opposite. I was over 40 in my second pregnancy and the scans suggested he was big. So I was pressured into pre emptive interventions.

What I wanted was positive support to go past my due date to wait for spontaneous labour (I wouldn’t have been happy to go more than a few days past given my age), to give labour a go, if all looking good, deliver vaginally, move to CS if any sign of trouble.

But the obstetrician wouldn’t (couldn’t?) offer that and manipulated me into a pre emptive c section.

Women are controlled and manipulated into ‘care’ they don’t want far too often. Sometimes they’re pushed towards vaginal birth, sometimes induction or a c section.

We need maternity care to centre mothers needs and wishes, and collaborate with them to provide the best care for that mother, not impose one version of care on everyone.

KittyLeMew · 26/02/2022 11:18

There is a pressure on women to have a VB from the get-go, the fact that it’s also called a ‘natural birth’ immediately elevates it, as does all the hypnobirthing, pregnancy yoga stuff that tells you you can ‘breathe out your baby’, and antenatal groups that can also be very biased towards natural births. I don’t want women to feel scared of birth but I also don’t think it’s that helpful to instil this kind of birth hierarchy when every woman’s situation is different, so much depends on other factors eg age, any other intervention (eg induction), position of baby etc.

The research isn’t shared with you when you discuss your birth plan with midwife or consultant. For example it’s known that over 40 + first birth + induction more often than not results in an emergency section. It’s obvious. But that information, which is vital and lifesaving, isn’t shared, so most women go through a natural birth attempt that is set up to fail from the start.

RoyalCorgi · 26/02/2022 11:30

I think there's a lot of obfuscation when "normal" birth advocates talk about risk. For example, they conflate emergency c-section and planned c-section - but planned c-sections have much better outcomes than emergency ones.

Secondly, they talk as if, somehow, if you want a "normal", vaginal birth you will have one, and they will allow women to labour for hours and hours rather than intervene, in the hope that eventually the woman will push the baby out. But in some cases, the woman doesn't push the baby out and then you have a worse emergency on your hands than if you'd intervened early. The result is a very urgent c-section or a forceps delivery that can cause physical damage to mother and baby.

So the mistake is to pretend that the choice is between c-section and a lovely normal vaginal birth. It isn't. It's much more complicated than that.

bishophaha · 26/02/2022 14:35

I will just say that it isn't always like that in the nhs - I had an injury with my first birth and when it came to the second the consultant I saw was incredibly even-handed in helping me decide what to do next, absolutely no pressure and if anything made an ELCS sound like a good option (which it was! )

I won't mention the incredibly ignorant doctor I saw before her, who spouted off absolute bollocks about certain "risks" of a CS which are categorically untrue (not the normal medical risks of surgery etc but other unrelated stuff). I nearly complained, he sounded like he had zero clue of what he was talking about.

Monitaurus · 27/02/2022 10:25

Did not see the programme but deeply shocked by your statistics and data Red I think as an example of ideology over what women feel or know it is an awful one. In my day (70s) there was a conflict between the “natural” birthers and the medical profession. I wanted the most natural birth possible and ideally a home birth, but was advised by GP that they were not as safe. I went forward confident but in the event I found the move from home to hospital difficult and labour was ghastly as I had opted for gas and air only. At some stage it was established the cord was around my baby’s neck and in the end I had episiotomy and forceps. We were both traumatised, but luckily recovered comparatively quickly. afterwards the GP told me that all five of his children were born at home. I felt cheated by the medical profession and by the organisations promoting vb. I still wonder whether birth trauma had a negative effect on my daughters development. I am really sorry for all those women and children who have suffered, especially through the ideologies fashionable at the time.

Eyesofdisarray · 27/02/2022 10:59

It's important to recognise the role of instrumental deliveries in future maternal health, both physical and mental. I won't ever forgive myself for the forceps delivery and subsequent mess-up. It was mismanagement from the start but I was just grateful to have my baby. But not the surgery and haemorrhage years later in an attempt to fix it.
We need to listen more and judge less

Goatsaregreat · 27/02/2022 11:45

The Times have an interesting article today on the "cult" of natural birth- share token :

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/508f011a-9653-11ec-bcb9-65f2c5c7f961?shareToken=af877f5a02db0afd895467b0e1e635a0

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 07:33

@goatsaregreat

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-60524898
Pregnancy risk tool cuts baby loss in black and Asian women

The new digital tool, which uses an algorithm to calculate a woman's personal risk, can detect high-risk women more accurately and prevent complications in pregnancy, the researchers say.

Both pregnant women and maternity staff can upload information on their pregnancy and how they are feeling to the app during antenatal appointments and at other times.

In the study, there were nearly eight deaths per 1,000 births among mothers from ethnic minority backgrounds, compared with 2.63 deaths per 1,000 births among white mothers, when the current checklist was used to assess risk.

But in pregnant women using the algorithm tool, there was no difference in death rates between white and non-white ethnic groups, because three out of four deaths linked to placenta problems had been avoided.

Wow. The affect staffing bias or lack of knowledge is having is huge. But looks like it can be fixed.

OP posts:
Theregoesmyhomebirth · 28/02/2022 10:33

Perhaps I'm being naive and uneducated here, but anecdotally everyone I know who had a traumatic birth it was one filled with interventions. Lots of women (including myself) who had a straightforward vaginal delivery, then lots who started that way and with every intervention (the syntocin drip and being made to lay reclined in a bed being most quoted) made it worse and worse before eventually an unplanned C-section or instrumental delivery. Then some planned c-sections which remove all the fear and uncertainty/labour being made worse by interventions so are by their nature a much better experience.
I can see I'm in the minority for my love of hypnobirthing, but from my perspective (granted about to have my first hospital birth and pretty anxious about it) we're glossing over the iatrogenic harm that comes with some of the interventions women are given quite regularly in a hospital labour too.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 11:09

@Theregoesmyhomebirth

Perhaps I'm being naive and uneducated here, but anecdotally everyone I know who had a traumatic birth it was one filled with interventions. Lots of women (including myself) who had a straightforward vaginal delivery, then lots who started that way and with every intervention (the syntocin drip and being made to lay reclined in a bed being most quoted) made it worse and worse before eventually an unplanned C-section or instrumental delivery. Then some planned c-sections which remove all the fear and uncertainty/labour being made worse by interventions so are by their nature a much better experience. I can see I'm in the minority for my love of hypnobirthing, but from my perspective (granted about to have my first hospital birth and pretty anxious about it) we're glossing over the iatrogenic harm that comes with some of the interventions women are given quite regularly in a hospital labour too.
I think you have something of cognitive bias going on here.

You are suggesting that women are making the wrong decision by having an intervention, then starts a casade which becomes traumatic as if its a choice within their power, rather than something that happens out of necessity.

Suggesting that women who don't have a determination or mindset to stay intervention free are in essence then setting themselves up to fail, is at best naive and at worst - indeed its the very mentality that dropping the target of CS is about challenging because its an ideological one that isn't backed up in research.

I, personally, think hypnobirthing has its place - it works for some but isn't for everyone.

OP posts:
Theregoesmyhomebirth · 28/02/2022 11:36

I think I've worded it clumsily if that's how it reads. I definitely have no judgement for any woman who chooses interventions during their labour. Nor do I think there should be any blame laid at the door of women in maternity care.

What I'm trying to question, is whether in a sometimes dangerous or traumatic intervention filled birth, the trauma is blamed on the intention to have a vaginal/'natural' delivery, rather than the intervention itself. The attempt to have a straightforward delivery is then seen as naive and silly (which is where you get the sneering at hypnobirthing).

The worst (granted anecdotal) experiences have been the ones in the middle, which unfortunately can't be avoided unless every woman has a c-section at 38 weeks and we do away with vaginal delivery altogether.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 12:37

@Theregoesmyhomebirth

I think I've worded it clumsily if that's how it reads. I definitely have no judgement for any woman who chooses interventions during their labour. Nor do I think there should be any blame laid at the door of women in maternity care.

What I'm trying to question, is whether in a sometimes dangerous or traumatic intervention filled birth, the trauma is blamed on the intention to have a vaginal/'natural' delivery, rather than the intervention itself. The attempt to have a straightforward delivery is then seen as naive and silly (which is where you get the sneering at hypnobirthing).

The worst (granted anecdotal) experiences have been the ones in the middle, which unfortunately can't be avoided unless every woman has a c-section at 38 weeks and we do away with vaginal delivery altogether.

But the worst births by definition WILL be in the middle.

You either choose to have an ELCS or choose to attempt a VB.

The risks of an ELCS are not small - but also include a clinical indication of a complex pregnancy, as part of that. They are higher risk pregnancies to begin with.

If you attempt a VB, this includes the risks of instrumental interventions and an EMCS.

Clearly in this latter group we are not identifing a lot of higher risk factors accurately.

Fir example: We know that higher levels of anxiety are associated with interventions and poorer maternal outcomes. Yet we are not screening women well for this.

I know this is taken a lot more seriously in other countries. Once identifyed women in this group are given more support by midwives and closer monitoring all round. This includes building up a relationship with staff and having more support at birth. It has seen an improvement in outcomes and birth satisfaction.

Hypnobirthday is a form of relaxation control - which is why I don't dismiss it. It will help some women. Equally it will be completely inappropriate for others and may be counterproductive for some in other ways stating the benefit. This is because we know that difference between expectations of births and experiences of birth is an indicator of being more at risk of trauma after the fact.

That suggests we should have a more realistic preparation for birth - including being honest about risks and how useful hynobirthing might be. We need to do research into this and establish if there are groups of women who we should suggest are clinically indicated as suitable to go for hynobirthing. If presented in this way it impowers women to make a better informed choice.

We should encourage women to have multiple birth plans rather than a single preference method of birth. So this is plan a, if we reach this point we are willing to go to plan b and if we hit this point we go to plan c. And this is understood from the word go and is discussed properly by staff (particularly with more anxious women). Instead we have women going in with idealistic views on what they want, no discussion with staff and thats what leads to this sense of lost of control and trauma.

Key to this is we know that women who have a difficult physical birth are not necessarily at risk of trauma from the birth itself. Its the planning and preparation in terms of these expectations that matters.

Theres where i do take issue with hynobirthing, because many of its biggest supporters over promise and are in denial about what may happen thats beyond control. Hynobirthing is about maintaining control amd managing pain through that control - so if that collapses it automatically creates a concept of failure or sense of panic because its not worked.

I do think staffing is a major issue in terms of delivering this type of better care. We need to do better at having an idea of who is perhaps more at risk of interventions. I do believe there will be other significant clinical indications that we can observe and study.

Indeed I think that many women who voice a preference for an intervention free birth at one end of the scale, will then say if they cannot have that they would prefer an ELCS because its about this control element.

How much we can control birth is also something we need better education as there are birth movements who suggest this is possible and it comes across in harmful and misleading language.

OP posts:
Theregoesmyhomebirth · 28/02/2022 13:09

@RedToothBrush Absolutely. Some great points, and as always worded much better than I could.
I really appreciated my hypnobirthing for my first birth, and will use some elements of it this time round. But I was always quite satisfied that it was some form of tools to use in certain scenarios, and that the situation could change any time.
I definitely had an element of grieving when I found out I couldn't have a low risk birth (midwife lead centre/homebirth) because so many of the positive elements of these aren't available in a hospital environment, including environmental additions, staffing, equipment etc.
I do worry that these studies/investigations will take us into a much more risk averse way of looking at maternity healthcare, and losing the positive elements held elsewhere.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 14:02

[quote Theregoesmyhomebirth]@RedToothBrush Absolutely. Some great points, and as always worded much better than I could.
I really appreciated my hypnobirthing for my first birth, and will use some elements of it this time round. But I was always quite satisfied that it was some form of tools to use in certain scenarios, and that the situation could change any time.
I definitely had an element of grieving when I found out I couldn't have a low risk birth (midwife lead centre/homebirth) because so many of the positive elements of these aren't available in a hospital environment, including environmental additions, staffing, equipment etc.
I do worry that these studies/investigations will take us into a much more risk averse way of looking at maternity healthcare, and losing the positive elements held elsewhere. [/quote]
You have to stress the risks associated with freebirthing in these situations as a counter argument.

Saying a flat no to women doesn't work. They will avoid engaging with hcps if you try that. Thats increased risk of a high risk pregnancy going unnoticed and a high risk birth with no medical support at all.

There has to be a respect for decisions made and support even if women make 'the wrong choice' because the point is that there isn't a right choice only the best one for each woman.

Arming women with data they can trust helps them make better decisions.

OP posts:
Rebecca75 · 28/02/2022 14:17

I was one of those women.

I would never normally post on a social media platform about my experiences but having read through the thread I just wanted to mention that my first child was very sadly still born in Shrewsbury hospital in 2009. The care I received from my consultant was amazing, and he was there for me for my 2 subsequent births. The midwives and staff who were with me through the most traumatic event of my life were great and caring. During the next 2 pregnancies I was allowed to be scanned and monitored as often as I wanted.

I know many women and families have been through utter hell and I am maybe one of the ‘lucky ones’ in the care department. I just wanted to make a point that there are some amazing staff members at that hospital

Theregoesmyhomebirth · 28/02/2022 16:41

@Rebecca75 Thanks So sorry for your loss.

purpleme12 · 01/03/2022 23:19

It was a very hard programme to watch
All those people and babies affected. 😢😢😢
I feel so bad for them 😢

janeha123 · 06/04/2022 17:56

What makes this situation worse is that the same day the Shrewsbury maternity scandal report was released, the government quietly passed their Health & Care Bill, which now makes it even harder to get to the bottom on these repeating cases of negligence. And makes it even harder for families to be listened to. See article in The Guardian 2.4.22:www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/01/maternity-scandals-england-new-law-nhs-ombudsman-warns

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