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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How does this help gay or gender-non-conforming children?

60 replies

JellySaurus · 22/02/2022 10:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-60464528

How does two straight men dressing up as an over-sexualised parody of women help gay or GNC children? Or even gay or GNC boys? Because it certainly doesn't help gay or GNC girls.

A friend's ds is a primary school teacher. NQT (or whatever it's called now. Anyway, young.) For Mental Health Week recently he wore a different feminine item to school every day. A dress, or skirt, or make-up, or accessory. That is supportive for GNC boys. That is teaching them all tolerance and acceptance of self-expression. Not teaching them that the only alternative to gung ho masculinity is to mock women while hiding yourself within the caricature.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 22/02/2022 16:18

“DoubleTweenQueen

I miss punk and the 80s, when young men (masculine or effeminate, straight or gay) wore makeup and androgenous-dressing girls didn’t equate ’trans’. It was cool, it was fluid and non-committal self-expression. We’ve gone very wrong.“

I agree. They were a thousand times more original, creative and individual. What on earth has gone so wrong. What a low bar.

quiteathome · 22/02/2022 18:35

I don't understand how this will help.

What did help my DS who thinks he might be gay. Was John and Johannes on Strictly. Even though he doesn't actually watch it. However to him that felt positive. The Eternals film had a same sex couple in it as well. That helped. There just needs to be representation in a normal way, not this.

JellySaurus · 22/02/2022 18:48

10-5 years ago, two of my sons were very GNC. Long hair, bright clothes, no dinosaurs/camo/cars T-shirts (loved Minecraft Ts, but they had to come from the girls' section as the colours were too dull in the boys' section) explored eyeliner etc.

They would not have looked out of place in a group of boys in the 70s.

The elder was teased for being girlie. 5 years later, the younger was asked if he was trans, and also teased.

A pair of grown men dressing up as caricatures of women would not only have made no positive difference to them, but would more likely have increased the teasing.

Ironically, some of the most supportive experiences they had with an adult outside the family were with a TW that we know. This person showed acceptance and interest, and made no assumptions about my sons' choices.

But what a difference it would have made to my sons at their schools, had a teacher dressed like my friend's son (in my OP).

OP posts:
Mummyoflittledragon · 22/02/2022 18:51

I don’t understand how 2 straight white men dressing in drag is helpful for children, who are questioning their sexual orientation or exploring identity.

I agree with people saying they miss the 80s. It seems quite an innocent time, when we weren’t all obsessed with artificially enhancing or changing our faces and bodies through cosmetic surgery.

FemaleAndLearning · 22/02/2022 18:54

@DoubleTweenQueen

I miss punk and the 80s, when young men (masculine or effeminate, straight or gay) wore makeup and androgenous-dressing girls didn’t equate ’trans’. It was cool, it was fluid and non-committal self-expression. We’ve gone very wrong.
Totally agree we've gone backwards. Even Duran Duran wore eyeliner and had long hair!

I can't understand the glee of drag, even as a child I didn't get it other than it made me feel uncomfortable. Think Kenny Everett. Then you see names for drag such as Mis Carriage, Anna Bortion, Phallic Cunt and it makes me sick that this is classed as hilarious entertainment.

DoubleYouOhEmAyEn · 22/02/2022 19:03

Drag is so offensive. But it's ok , its only some women who are offended. Crack on, prime time telly bosses. Its progressive and inclusive to have grotesque woman- parodies . Makes people feel accepted and included.
Right Hmm

DoubleTweenQueen · 24/02/2022 06:51

Agree - we're regressing in a very ugly way regarding respect for women in society and depiction in media, where Love Island, the Kardashian's, or Drag Race are the depictions. Extremes of sexualisation, parody, or a cosmetic 'ideal' is the message young girls get.
Strong creative normal role models don't seem to get much of a look-in these days.

As an aside, it was the beautiful and talented David Sylvian's birthday yesterday 💗🎂🎉

mummabear0803 · 24/02/2022 15:19

I thought you might want to hear from the mother herself again (I expect it’s much better that putting my son out here to receive your spite or opinion). You are right, in fact we know a lovely lady who dresses in drag. It’s not necessarily about sexuality, tho our son recognises himself as gay. It’s about celebrities using a platform to support others no matter what your sexuality & showing that sexuality isn’t contagious, it’s NOT defined by what people wear or how they look. Its about breaking down barriers, the very barriers you are creating. A lot of drag performances are about lip syncing as your favourite artist, and many drag artists wear makeup and outfits because they enjoy the way it feels, many feel empowered. You may have met a drag artist that told you different which is fair enough, but being too quick to judge & stereotype anyone without the full facts or knowing anything about how my message of thanks relates to my family seems very unkind, unjust and unnecessary. There are many topics around the world I have not learnt or educated myself about, mainly due to the complexities of time, or simply that they just haven’t crossed my path, so I do understand your position, however it is very much like Chinese whispers, and seems far more appropriate to take the time understand the facts before you apply critical or negative assumptions. I think that it’s obvious that any pornographic performance would not be appropriate for any child, and let’s be precise, that’s not what I thanked Ant & Dec for. No one actively encourages their child’s sexuality (another ludicrous comment). Our son doesn’t like football, nor enjoys spending his time with the boys doing testosterone driven activities and it was the other children in primary school that began questioning his sexuality. You can bury heads in the sand, or think it won’t happen to you, cover the real world over, or hide difficult matters away or ones that make you uncomfortable, but there is a limit to who your child chooses to be, and a limit to outside influences you can control, it doesn’t make anyone less of a parent. Many of the children in school ridicule each other for being gay, there are many games or notes that go around claiming someone is gay, if they don’t copy a behaviour then their gay, or maybe someone tries a new hairstyle, or they choose an unexpected colour, they walk or talk differently, and many of the comments he has received over time are quotes from the bullies parents. Many of the girls have wanted to be his girlfriend, as a lot of ‘role play’ occurs in early childhood, but over time he seemed to be announcing he had a new girlfriend until one day he told us he would only say yes because he didn’t want to hurt their feelings. He enjoyed being in the company of girls and related to them much easier than boys, there’s not much taught to children about recognises friends as girls, or boys. It’s quite obvious that our natural reaction as parents is to encourage any child to make the most of the vast array of opportunities they have to learn and discover in school and delay big decisions until we think their old enough, but perhaps you should consider this.. if your child (in their own time - obviously another ludicrous suggestion), wanted to buy and wear clothes, or wear makeup that made them feel good, would you give them that freedom of who they want to be, or would you dig your heels in and demand they wear what you think looks good. I would much rather feel confident that my son has no fear of talking to me or sharing his thoughts and feelings. I don’t think any reasonable parent would encourage or allow any child to dress in crop tops, makeup or heels at work, school, college, male or female, just as we tend to dress differently if we’re off to work, going out for a meal, or simply cleaning at home. Mumsnet began as a form of mums sharing stories, inspiring each other, helping one another, a platform to come together, regardless of experiences, status, age, discrimination, but it seems your more content to whisk up toxicity, aggression and outright nastiness it’s disappointing and not what this platform is designed for.

BootsAndRoots · 24/02/2022 15:34

Five years ago there wouldn't have been a debate around it, but because of the trans debate, everything that is related to gender non-conformity is now a political battleground.

RuPaul has faced a lot of transphobia allegations, and Drag Race has even had to change to be more inclusive.

What Ant and Dec did is for entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. It's articles like the BBC's that try to make it into something more, and I wonder if the complaints were actually raised after the BBC made that article?

mummabear0803 · 24/02/2022 15:42

@tiktok

I do think the mother in the video is bizarre....make up isn't appropriate daily wear for any 12-year-old, surely, boy or girl? Most schools would not permit it. What he does in his free time away from school is his family's business, and he can dress up for fun and enjoyment away from any bullies.

@HipTightOnions makes the point that Ant&Dec are hardly role models for this age group. I'm sure they're popular, but what they do or don't do is not going to influence teens and pre-teens.

Wow, perhaps I am bizarre because you’ve decided to create something I didn’t say.. where did the assumption of ‘daily makeup’ come from, if your going to have an opinion the very least you could do is get the information correct. Perhaps letting my son dress how he wishes, or wear makeup could be refined to his time in the house, unfortunately bullies aren’t simply confined to school, there are many who are out having fun at the park, or cinema, or shops, or after school clubs, in fact many are backed up by their parents! You didn’t even know that the bulling his has received started at primary school and since then has been due to him not wanting to play football with the boys, and having more in common with girls, nothing to do with the makeup, many of the children haven’t seen him in makeup, and if it makes him feel good why should he hide it. Your right, it is our families business, but that doesn’t make anyone hesitate before they indulge in full blown spite and ill judgement, shame on you.
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