Non binary camp councelor shares cabin with fifth grade girls (Calefornia)

[Xoxoxoxoxoxox]

Girls sent to a science camp were housed insleeping quarters with non binary male councelors, the camp says that they house residents by gender identity.
Parents were only informed when they returned from the trip.

So how does being non-binary get this teacher housed with the girls?

midvalleynews.com/non-binary-biological-male-counselors-allowed-to-sleep-in-fifth-grade-girls-cabins-at-science-camp/

A good man, however he identifies, would not sleep in a room with young girls.
Imo whoever the non binary person is either doesn't have enough emotional maturity to be a counselor or just doesn't care.

This story reveals one of the central things that is happening: I don’t think it’s a coincidence that we are seeing all these incursions into female-centred, female-empowering places like girls guides and science camps: the TRAs are targeting them deliberately as their aim l, I think, is to stop girls having anything for themselves that lifts them up out of patriarchy and makes them unassailable. It’s no coincidence that all the women-promoting things I loved have been made impossible for me to support any longer.

Actually, you wouldn't want adult men sleep sleep in a room with your sons either. Absolutely as vulnerable as your daughters. And what that probably means is no adult should be sharing a room with children.

Actually, you wouldn't want adult men sleep sleep in a room with your sons either. Absolutely as vulnerable as your daughters. And what that probably means is no adult should be sharing a room with children

Yeah I thought this is where the behaviour contract thing comes In.

I wonder if this was the norm for these camps before or whether it's new ajd set up for the validation process

@Datun

It really is the most profound insanity that people in authority are not just letting, but sanctioning adult men sleeping next to young girls because those men say out loud that they aren't male or female.

I honestly don't know how they have become quite this blind. It really is collective brainwashing.

Lifton's 8 Criteria come to mind (written about brainwashing).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

Not sure if this has been shared but it seems to have played on their local News.

twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1495461462361346050?s=21

It is interesting that safeguarding views and standards vary around the world. In the UK adults should not be sleeping in a space with young people at all. Certainly I know in Anerica camp counsellors sleeping in a cabin is perfectly normal. In some European countries I understand it would be viewed as negligent to have young children sleeping without adults and in other European countries adults and children of all genders can just sleep in a space together. My experience is scouting and you have to be very clear in discussions before events about what the expectations are.

@helpfulperson Yes, I think in the US it's very usual to have 'counsellors' in the accommodation - but always sharing with young people of the same sex. I think these are almost always older adolescents or very young adults - all those UK students who used to go over to do 'Camp America' (is that still a thing?) So these non binary males may or may not be over 18 themselves. Not that it makes it any more acceptable - it's a very clear statement to abusers that this is a scenario where norms and rules which are usually there to protect children are being set aside. And abusers all start somewhere.

I find it very hard to understand the decision-making process that led to this scenario. These individuals aren't even identifying as female. Surely they should either be with other males (by sex) or neither girls nor boys (as they don't identify with either gender). Were there literally no female counsellors?

@Redshoeblueshoe

The school saying it's against the law to tell the parents Does anyone know if that is true ?(telling the parents I mean)

Where in the article does it say that?

It's worrying how this diminishing of safeguarding is enabling adults with no boundaries to thrive. On a school trip there are always discussions about where adults sleep in relation to children (supervision etc). In this case these adult born males self identifying as n b must have expressed their preference for sleeping with 9 / 10 year old girls and nobody in charge was prepared to tell them no.

That's a terrifying abdication of basic safeguarding principles. Listening to the parents in that clip trying desperately not to get it wrong, just stating that they wanted to know in advance so they could make decisions - too scared to say that this is completely unacceptable.

IntermittentParps
From the article
Camp Pali assistant director Emmi Tiege said in a statement: “Per California law, we place staff in cabins they identify with.”

@Goatsaregreat

IntermittentParps From the article Camp Pali assistant director Emmi Tiege said in a statement: “Per California law, we place staff in cabins they identify with.”

Thank you; but I understand from that that it's California law to place staff in cabins they gender-identify with, not that the school said it's against the law to tell the parents. Am I missing something? (genuine question).

@Gumbomambo

I just think it will go down that route now where girls will just be kept home, no science camps, no school trips no opportunities to enrich their lives and give them a leg up. It’s shit.

I made this point on the government survey thing years ago.

If girls and women are made to feel unsafe they'll stop doing things - so for gyms and sport facilites it's a diminished market fewer customers so likely prices will go up for remaining customers - men - and your fairly quickly into a death spiral and no-one gets to do these things.

As PP says if there are this lax with safeguarding girls could I really be sure they'd be better with my son.

Not sure how their confidentiality laws work IntermittentParps. Here, although schools would be unlikely to share that information about their staff with parents before a trip, the staff wouldn't be sharing bedrooms with children.
On the other hand the UK Girl Guides are explicit that the rights of men who self identify as women matter far more than any tedious safeguarding needs of girls for privacy or safety from men.

@Goatsaregreat

Not sure how their confidentiality laws work IntermittentParps. Here, although schools would be unlikely to share that information about their staff with parents before a trip, the staff wouldn't be sharing bedrooms with children. On the other hand the UK Girl Guides are explicit that the rights of men who self identify as women matter far more than any tedious safeguarding needs of girls for privacy or safety from men.

Ah, I see. So is there any info given on sleeping arrangements in the UK in these situations? (I don't have kids). e.g. would a letter or email say 'children will sleep in cabins of four people, single-sex, one teacher (or no adults or whatever) in each cabin'?

Normally IntermittentParps we tell parents about the general sleeping arrangements as you suggest (by letter and often in a pre meeting for parents) but I can't recall any school needing to specify that sleeping / washing accommodation will be single sex as of course, it was never an issue. Schools just don't arrange mixed sex sleeping for school children - and if they did there'd be an uproar.

Now of course, in upside down world, there's so much denial and fantasy language about self identifying and rights that of course, these are issues. I know of one school (several years ago) where a trip was cancelled after the parents of a trans boy insisted that they must be allowed to share a bedroom with 3 boys. The schools said no, the parent called in one of the bullying lobby groups to threaten and as a result, all the teachers refused to go with the result that the trip was cancelled.

@Goatsaregreat

Normally IntermittentParps we tell parents about the general sleeping arrangements as you suggest (by letter and often in a pre meeting for parents) but I can't recall any school needing to specify that sleeping / washing accommodation will be single sex as of course, it was never an issue. Schools just don't arrange mixed sex sleeping for school children - and if they did there'd be an uproar.

Now of course, in upside down world, there's so much denial and fantasy language about self identifying and rights that of course, these are issues. I know of one school (several years ago) where a trip was cancelled after the parents of a trans boy insisted that they must be allowed to share a bedroom with 3 boys. The schools said no, the parent called in one of the bullying lobby groups to threaten and as a result, all the teachers refused to go with the result that the trip was cancelled.

Thank you. I see what you mean; it never needed to be mentioned.

In Scouts (in the UK) I believe they have a hard rule of no under-18s sharing sleeping accommodation with over-18s. My friend's daughter was laughing about how one of the other Scouts happened to have his 18th birthday in the middle of a trip, so had to change tents that night. I'm not sure whether the 18-year-olds were in with the adult leaders or not.

I can sort of understand, though, that somewhere else might have a culture that it is negligent to have kids sleeping without an adult in the cabin. Maybe they'd worry that it would be too easy for kids to sneak out otherwise. If that was standard, you could even have the adults' beds by the door, but with partial screening between them and the kids' beds.

But WHY ON EARTH would being non binary mean that male adults should be put in with female children? Even if all the rules are based on gender identity? Unless this was a cabin of girls who all called themselves non binary- but if so, surely that would be reported in the article? Crazy.

While lots of US summer camps have [junior] counsellor positions for U18s, the camp in question here only employs counsellors (SPECIALIST ones, at that, because they are ✨fancy✨ while abandoning all common sense) aged 18 & over; while campers are aged 8-16.

Cabins sleep (up to) 10 children - plus 2 counsellors to supervise. Often when counsellors share a cabin with campers they have their own room within the cabin rather than sharing the main room that the campers do. I can’t tell from the info about this Camp if that’s the case or not though - nor what the bathroom arrangements are. Of course, in this case, said set-up would raise serious questions about expecting a woman to share a small space with a non-binary male. (However, if our NBM counsellor just chances to have a female partner who is ALSO a counsellor at the camp, it might explain much… )

It’s almost as if they have a vague memory of how safeguarding is meant to work:
“• Bunking is gender and age appropriate. Cabin groups will not have campers aged more than one year apart, though they may encompass more than one grade level.
• For programming reasons, campers aged 12 and under are not put in cabins with campers aged 13 and older. This allows us to run different activities appropriate for younger or older campers.
• If a 13-year-old wishes to be bunked with a 12-year-old, they’ll be bunked in the younger cabin. Rules pertaining to campers 12 and under will apply to them.”

The staff allocation wasn’t “gender appropriate”, though, unless all the children in that cabin identified as non-binary. I mean, in the real world it wasn’t appropriate full-stop; & someone should have asked some serious questions about why an AMAB enby thought THAT cabin was where they should be (because if it was “so I can have sex with my girlfriend” that’s still totally inappropriate, just less horrific than other possibilities). Moreover, how can they possibly provide “appropriate” accommodation for near-infinite genders? It’s a total nonsense.

Their website also mentions having campers from abroad - & the website offers information in Spanish, French & Russian for parents of [prospective] international campers. Yes, Russia. That bastion of LGBT - & indeed women’s - rights. And leaving that aside, when you have proverbs about intelligent women showing the cleverness of their fathers; & one good daughter being worth seven sons - if they want their Russian clients to not only yank their daughters out but also kick up an almighty fuss & spread the word that your camp is not a safe place for girls they’re going the right way about it.

(Am sure I had other thoughts, but this has already taken too long to write & when I fall asleep while writing posts they are not improved. Also probably the fewer of my words the better on this because )

@Justme56

So what is the difference between a man and a man who now calls they self non binary? As a recent tweet highlighted they don’t change there name, there clothing, there bodies or their privilege.

Their pronouns and ... nope, that's it.

One way to keep things available to girls is surely for someone to set up e.g. a girl's camp & only employ women. They wouldn't say so in the job ads, they'd just reject any men who applied, without ever saying that's why. They'd either not give a reason or find some other reason for the rejection.

That's what I planned to do, about 20 years ago, when I was part of the interview & recruitment panel for a rape crisis centre for women & girls. I heard on the news about a Canadian who was rejected as a women's RCC worker, & I thought, 'Just don't give the real reason why they were rejected. It's obvious!'.

This may be against fairness or even employment/discrimination law, but I bet it happens all the time in terms of race or class, etc.

If you were a male sex offender and wanted an opportunity to sleep in the same room as young girls, this would be perfect wouldn't it? Just say you feel more comfortable sleeping in with the girls.

It's fucking wide open!!!

How can anyone not see this?

Men who want to sleep in rooms with young girls are quite aware of what sex is.

What kind of grown ass adult male feels 'most comfortable' sleeping in with teenage girls? What kind of adult male 'identifies most closely' with that?

Not even teenagers. About 11. What sort of man? A nonce.