Conflicted about gender ideology

[Doresy]

Have name changed for this.

I am a GC feminist who believes there are two sexes and a man cannot become a woman and vice versa.

However, my workplace has recently introduced the "pronouns" thing and we are being lectured on how to be more "inclusive."

One person brought up the point that it doesn't harm anyone to refer to another person by their chosen pronouns.

I was instantly reminded by the post I saw on here talking about a male sex offender and referring to "her penis." I know it does matter and it does harm women. But, everyone else seems to be enamoured with the idea that it's not hurting anyone and we should be kind.

I'm scared to put my head above the parapet in case I lose my job for being discriminatory or transphobic. But, if we're all scared to speak out then it will continue.

All the bathrooms are now "gender neutral" with signs depicting half man/ half woman (i.e. a man in a suit and a woman in a dress.) Surely this defeats the point? Men can wear dresses without BEING women.

I know some of you must be in a similar situation? What have you done to express your discomfort/ disbelief?

We haven't got to this stage yet with work but if it does come I will be making 2 points:
Pronouns - research shows that when women draw attention to their sex it has a negative impact on their career. I am sure someone will be able to point to the study. If we encourage "gender-blind" recruitment to avoid bias, why would we suddenly want to advertise our "gender"?
Toilets - do you have any Muslim (or any other religiously observant) women in your place or work? How does this impact them? Would this not be direct discrimination under EA2010? If the answer is "we don't have any", do they plan to avoid hiring any in the future (also direct discrimination I assume)

When you say gender neutral toilets what do you mean?

If my work starts in on all this then my first questions will be about how they are addressing the other diversity issues that have been ignored for years ie gender/ethnicity pay gap, accessible employment....

My biggest issue with pronouns is that we are still in a place where being female in the workplace is a disadvantage so doing anything that highlights your femaleness is detrimental. This has been evidenced in multiple research studies, and a particularly illuminating experiment where a female and male staff member swapped email accounts and were able to demonstrate a significantly quicker and more positive set of responses to the woman who now appeared male in emails than she had ever received previously.

Another problem with pronouns is that anyone not ready to 'come out' is forced to either lie or divulge information about their gender identity they may not be ready to divulge.

@BuffysBigSister

We haven't got to this stage yet with work but if it does come I will be making 2 points: Pronouns - research shows that when women draw attention to their sex it has a negative impact on their career. I am sure someone will be able to point to the study. If we encourage "gender-blind" recruitment to avoid bias, why would we suddenly want to advertise our "gender"? Toilets - do you have any Muslim (or any other religiously observant) women in your place or work? How does this impact them? Would this not be direct discrimination under EA2010? If the answer is "we don't have any", do they plan to avoid hiring any in the future (also direct discrimination I assume)

Good points, thank you. I'm still nervous to raise them because it feels like I'm the only one who thinks this way.

@FemaleAndLearning

When you say gender neutral toilets what do you mean?

They've changed all the toilets so that anyone can use any toilet. We used to have "men" with the "male" sign and "women"'with the "female" sign, which is a dress, obviously. 🙄

Now we have this.

The loos are for people wearing a dress with bad wind ?

Are the loos set up as floor to ceiling self contained cubicles with sink in the cubicle? Or have they just taken a normal set up where someone could look under/over the door and told you they're gender neutral?

I work in a uni and would fucking hate this. I don't want to share a toilet with men. I have shared the toilet with one or two trans students who are male but there are not many of them and it didn't bother me because I know them. But I would hate to share the toilet with male colleagues knowing that every time I used the bathroom anyone could be in there. I'd feel really uncomfortable and humiliated.

Can't we just have some dignity FFS? I've been put in this position at conferences before and other venues. Hate it.

If I have to do it in the future, I am going to send an email to HR and just express innocent concern and ask if they have considered these 2 particular issues. Maybe suggest that there could be legal issues around discrimination. I know it's easy for me to say that when I am not in the position of having to actually challenge - although I am egging my friend on to complain about the gender neutral loos at her work's brand new office space.

@anothersmahedmug

The loos are for people wearing a dress with bad wind ?

Exactly 😬

@HalfShrunkMoreToGo

Are the loos set up as floor to ceiling self contained cubicles with sink in the cubicle? Or have they just taken a normal set up where someone could look under/over the door and told you they're gender neutral?

No, there are gaps at the top and bottom of the doors and the sinks are communal.

@FemaleAndLearning

When you say gender neutral toilets what do you mean?

Yep... back to the bosses - "I'm quite happy that these toilets are gender neutral, but they still need to remain single sex. Obv I have no problem if women of any gender identity use the gender neutral women's toilets."

These gestures towards inclusivity costs employers nothing, that's why they adopt them so readily. Making the workplace properly accessible for people with disabilities or fixing the sex pay gap costs a lot of money, hence no action is taken until legal challenges are made.

Like any flag flying exercise it's just empty virtue signalling.

There has been quite a lot in the news recently about helping women deal with the menopause in the workplace. Many companies are (hopefully) recognising the issue and the need for support. On the basis of being inclusive maybe you could bring this up with HR and highlight the need for women who are dealing with menstrual issues can often find it extremely embarrassing to share facilities with men. Ask them what plans they have to deal with issues like this - if they are such an inclusive company they need to recognise everyone’s needs.

So from your description they sound like mixed sex toilets. Does each cubicle have a sanitary bin? If not request they do. I would also question them about what 5hey are putting in place to stop people peering over or under or using a camera. I'm not sure what the workplace rules on toilets but don't let them gaslight you into calling them gender neutral use mixed sex.

@NotMyGenderGoblin I wish I had the confidence to say this. I can't afford to lose my job though. And they've gone so far down the rabbit hole that I think they would sack me over this.

Toilets - do you have any Muslim (or any other religiously observant) women in your place or work? How does this impact them? Would this not be direct discrimination under EA2010? If the answer is "we don't have any", do they plan to avoid hiring any in the future (also direct discrimination I assume)

Other groups affected also protected under the Equality Act (and that requires PROACTIVE work to include, not reacting once a woman has to explain she has no access and has not been included-)

• other cultures and faiths, particularly women who are Orthodox Jews, or from Gypsy/Roma heritage

• women with disabilities, particularly including Autism: many posts on MN here from neurodiverse women explaining that they cannot access mixed sex spaces

• women with a history of trauma, DV and PTSD or CSA (likely to qualify under disability law protection) who cannot use mixed sex spaces.

Obviously no female person should ever be placed in a situation of having to disclose highly sensitive, distressing and personal information in order to try and plead for a place to be allowed to pee.

Basically all the arguments put forward for gender neutral provisions to be made for TQ+ people must be put forward in exactly the same way for everyone else, even the mere female ones.

Everyones privacy and dignity matters. Everyones beliefs and triggers and traumas matter. Everyone's comfort matters. No one can be expected to disclose sensitive personal information to have somewhere accessible. And that means a range of facilities including female only ones. Which TQ+ employees must be expected to respect as necessary for female colleagues' inclusion, and that while TQ+ employees have every right to expect accessible provision for themselves it is obviously not acceptable to demand that female people are denied accessible provision in addition to this on the grounds that they find it politically offensive and would prefer those women to be excluded.

There are nine protected characteristics. Not one.

@FemaleAndLearning

So from your description they sound like mixed sex toilets. Does each cubicle have a sanitary bin? If not request they do. I would also question them about what 5hey are putting in place to stop people peering over or under or using a camera. I'm not sure what the workplace rules on toilets but don't let them gaslight you into calling them gender neutral use mixed sex.

Nope, each cubicle does not have a sanitary bin. They didn't think of that. It's laughable really, however, I feel like I'm in the wrong because everyone else is saying how great and inclusive this is. 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Artichokeleaves

Toilets - do you have any Muslim (or any other religiously observant) women in your place or work? How does this impact them? Would this not be direct discrimination under EA2010? If the answer is "we don't have any", do they plan to avoid hiring any in the future (also direct discrimination I assume)

Other groups affected also protected under the Equality Act (and that requires PROACTIVE work to include, not reacting once a woman has to explain she has no access and has not been included-)

• other cultures and faiths, particularly women who are Orthodox Jews, or from Gypsy/Roma heritage

• women with disabilities, particularly including Autism: many posts on MN here from neurodiverse women explaining that they cannot access mixed sex spaces

• women with a history of trauma, DV and PTSD or CSA (likely to qualify under disability law protection) who cannot use mixed sex spaces.

Obviously no female person should ever be placed in a situation of having to disclose highly sensitive, distressing and personal information in order to try and plead for a place to be allowed to pee.

Basically all the arguments put forward for gender neutral provisions to be made for TQ+ people must be put forward in exactly the same way for everyone else, even the mere female ones.

Everyones privacy and dignity matters. Everyones beliefs and triggers and traumas matter. Everyone's comfort matters. No one can be expected to disclose sensitive personal information to have somewhere accessible. And that means a range of facilities including female only ones. Which TQ+ employees must be expected to respect as necessary for female colleagues' inclusion, and that while TQ+ employees have every right to expect accessible provision for themselves it is obviously not acceptable to demand that female people are denied accessible provision in addition to this on the grounds that they find it politically offensive and would prefer those women to be excluded.

There are nine protected characteristics. Not one.

Thank you very much!

And obviously to avoid discriminatory practice or finger pointing or 'outing' female colleagues, there should simply be a range of accessible provisions for which everyone accesses their preference for the options available to them personally. Needs are planned for and thought about proactively (again, the chances of employing a female with faith/culture/disability/SA/DV history are much higher statistically than the number of TW in the employment market) and no questions need to be asked.

This is a helpful thread, thanks for starting it.

I work in a university and at the moment it’s not taking too much notice of the gender debate (I’m sure it will come).

In my previous workplace, they took this discussion up with great enthusiasm, although of course it wasn’t a discussion. Edicts were issued and policies were written that meant essentially, anyone with a view other than TWAW would be seen as bullying.

I found it very difficult to work under that sort of regime (I don’t think the VC cared less actually, it was about The Student Experience) and I think the final straw was in a meeting where someone said ‘it’s not just women who give birth’.

It’s so difficult to challenge though, when you need a job and the culture is so firmly on one side. I wish I’d had the courage but I didn’t.

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

The relevant legislation is the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992. Regulation 20, Sanitary conveniences, states:

Suitable and sufficient sanitary conveniences shall be provided at readily accessible places.
Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), sanitary conveniences shall not be suitable unless -
    the rooms containing them are adequately ventilated and lit;
    they and the rooms containing them are kept in a clean and orderly condition; and
    <strong>separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.</strong>

(that means the sink has to be inside, also). Building regulations also apply, these may vary slightly between local authorities.

"They've changed all the toilets so that anyone can use any toilet. We used to have "men" with the "male" sign and "women"'with the "female" sign, which is a dress, obviously. 🙄

Now we have this."

That says less "gender neutral" and more "windswept".

I would write anonymously to HR and say that (i) they are breaking the law by not having separate male and female toilets and (ii) that it makes you very uncomfortable to be requested to declare personal identity characteristics in your email signature. Especially as it is proven that when women highlight their sex, they get treated worse because of it.

And state that you wish that you would feel be able to state so publicly but this topic is so fraught that you fear for your career if you were to raise any concerns. This places you in a very difficult position because of your sex, and makes your workplace a very uncomfortable place to be a woman.

Although writing anonymously is clearly not ideal, it is worthwhile. My employer was trying to climb the Stonewall Misogny Index and did all all the internal articles, encouraging pronouns, getting a Transwoman to speak for International Women's Day etc. But in the annual staff survey, a lot of people complained about feeling silenced, and there was recognition that actually this was a very divisive issue.

Notably, during lockdown the toilet sign changed to gender neutral.

Following the staff survey, - and a review by a law firm of the advice that Stonewall gave, which said that a lot of their advice was against the law - the toilets have quietly changed back to single sex.