Conflicted about gender ideology

[Doresy]

Have name changed for this.

I am a GC feminist who believes there are two sexes and a man cannot become a woman and vice versa.

However, my workplace has recently introduced the "pronouns" thing and we are being lectured on how to be more "inclusive."

One person brought up the point that it doesn't harm anyone to refer to another person by their chosen pronouns.

I was instantly reminded by the post I saw on here talking about a male sex offender and referring to "her penis." I know it does matter and it does harm women. But, everyone else seems to be enamoured with the idea that it's not hurting anyone and we should be kind.

I'm scared to put my head above the parapet in case I lose my job for being discriminatory or transphobic. But, if we're all scared to speak out then it will continue.

All the bathrooms are now "gender neutral" with signs depicting half man/ half woman (i.e. a man in a suit and a woman in a dress.) Surely this defeats the point? Men can wear dresses without BEING women.

I know some of you must be in a similar situation? What have you done to express your discomfort/ disbelief?

Dorsey
“No, there are gaps at the top and bottom of the doors and the sinks are communal.“

Just horrible. That means no privacy or dignity whatsoever.

Isn't it ridiculous that in 2022 we are having this discussion - not just expressing dissatisfaction with our single sex spaces being taken over - but having to discuss how to raise our dissatisfaction as we fear for our jobs?

It's fucking infuriating. Obviously I'm not very articulate today so I'm just posting in support and leaving the suggested wordings to more articulate women than me!

If it was me, I would also be stickering provided there was no CCTV.

Sex Matters on pronouns.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/

[quote EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]Sex Matters on pronouns.

sex-matters.org/posts/updates/pronouns/[/quote]
A very useful guide, thanks Hadro.

@DomesticatedZombie

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

The relevant legislation is the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992. Regulation 20, Sanitary conveniences, states:

Suitable and sufficient sanitary conveniences shall be provided at readily accessible places.
Without prejudice to the generality of paragraph (1), sanitary conveniences shall not be suitable unless -
    the rooms containing them are adequately ventilated and lit;
    they and the rooms containing them are kept in a clean and orderly condition; and
    <strong>separate rooms containing conveniences are provided for men and women except where and so far as each convenience is in a separate room the door of which is capable of being secured from inside.</strong>

(that means the sink has to be inside, also). Building regulations also apply, these may vary slightly between local authorities.

Thank you, I knew someone would know the rules. So they are going against Health and Safety rules by doing this.

OP could you complain about this via a private talk with H&S rather than HR?

Do people in your workplace know which toilet facilities contain urinals?

If a new member of staff joins who has a penis will they be aware of where the urinals are based? Or have the organisation basically installed urinals in all toilet facilities now?

Women don't want piss on the loo seats.
Surely there's a health and safety consideration here.

There’s such a lack of critical thinking here. How will the company deal with the need for privacy and dignity if a woman has a miscarriage in the toilets? Are they offering women additional money to pay for sanitary products now that it is no longer possible to use mooncups?

For men it is usually 2 basic bodily functions. For women it is so much more.

Have they never had a case of sexual harassment at work? They’re offering that harasser the keys to the palace.

@Flammkuchen

Notably, during lockdown the toilet sign changed to gender neutral.

Following the staff survey, - and a review by a law firm of the advice that Stonewall gave, which said that a lot of their advice was against the law - the toilets have quietly changed back to single sex.

I wonder how many firms have paid for similar advice and had similar reports.

Why aren't they speaking up and reporting this for the benefit of other firms and people who are misled?

@Doresy
Doresy why not copy and paste @Artichokeleaves' absolutely hands down brilliant post into a letter and send it anonymously to your employer and the HR department?

Yes, @Ionlydomassiveones has good advice too.

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@Doresy
Doresy why not copy and paste @Artichokeleaves' absolutely hands down brilliant post into a letter and send it anonymously to your employer and the HR department?[/quote]
Good idea!

They are clearly breaking the law on toilets.
Point this out, anonymously if you must.

OMFG.... this is unreal. To make matters worse could the "female" half of the gender neutral bladder owner be anymore stereotypical, wearing a skirt or is this the trans expression...

Personally I refuse to go in these bathrooms and would strongly challenge unisex toilets in the workplace.

Why are our sex based rights being taken away, when was there a vote on this...
What a load of crap.

OP there is a lot of good advice on this thread but what really hacks me off is that we have to use all these arguements about protected characteristics etc.
Toilets are provided at work for employees comfort and productivity. Trans people deserve to be comfortable too and if that means additional gender neutral provision then fine by me.
But mixed sex facilities make me feel uncomfortable and unsafe, and I am not alone. Why isn't that enough of an argument to keep single sex facilities? Why does my comfort suddenly not matter anymore?
Sorry for the rant, it just infuriates me.

If trans women want to be treated like women and trans men want to be treated like men.

isnt' getting rid of the mens and womens toilets and forcing trans men to piss with women and trans women to piss with men transphobic as well as sexist to the men and women as no one will feel comfortable having a piss?

@VelvetChairGirl

If trans women want to be treated like women and trans men want to be treated like men.

isnt' getting rid of the mens and womens toilets and forcing trans men to piss with women and trans women to piss with men transphobic as well as sexist to the men and women as no one will feel comfortable having a piss?

Very good point.

Another approach might be freebleeding, leaving sanpro on the floor/cistern, etc, and just complaining every time there is urine on the seat/floor/etc but I appreciate not everyone is up for that kind of action.

I've just noticed a comment on the staff chat group saying that we should learn from trans people.

"When someone asks you to call them something, just do it. It doesn't hurt you in the slightest and if anyone complains it just makes them look bad outwith their echo chamber. I've met loads of transpeople. They are normal people with different views to us and we should learn from them."

Yes, this was a comment from a man, obviously.

It's the "it doesn't hurt you" comment that does it for me.

Also, learn what exactly? How to be a woman? I'm pretty sure we've got that covered.

And yes, this comment was from a man. Everyone is agreeing.

I despair.

Sorry I said the "this comment is from a man" sentence twice. I unsuccessfully tried to edit my post.

Maybe it bloody does need saying twice though!

They’ve met looooads of trans ppl have they? Even the largest estimates are around 500,000 ppl so I suspect loads means 1 or 2

This is also one of the many things that winds me up. This idea that we have sooo much to learn from trans ppl as if they are sone kind of wise gentle almost sacral caste of ppl who are much better than the rest of us by virtue of being trans

@Doresy

I've just noticed a comment on the staff chat group saying that we should learn from trans people.

"When someone asks you to call them something, just do it. It doesn't hurt you in the slightest and if anyone complains it just makes them look bad outwith their echo chamber. I've met loads of transpeople. They are normal people with different views to us and we should learn from them."

Yes, this was a comment from a man, obviously.

It's the "it doesn't hurt you" comment that does it for me.

Also, learn what exactly? How to be a woman? I'm pretty sure we've got that covered.

And yes, this comment was from a man. Everyone is agreeing.

I despair.

Shout Gynophobe! at everyone? is that what they mean?

@Theeyeballsinthesky

They’ve met looooads of trans ppl have they? Even the largest estimates are around 500,000 ppl so I suspect loads means 1 or 2

This is also one of the many things that winds me up. This idea that we have sooo much to learn from trans ppl as if they are sone kind of wise gentle almost sacral caste of ppl who are much better than the rest of us by virtue of being trans

It winds me up too.

I have no doubt that he may have one or two trans friends who are lovely and "normal." However, that's not the point!

I have MANY male friends whom I love and respect. Do I want to share a changing room with them? No.
Do I want them to perform my smear test? No.

I realise male nurses can perform smear tests and that's absolutely fine, however, I request a female nurse for personal reasons and I feel that should be respected.