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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scotland

32 replies

Cismyfatarse · 17/02/2022 07:41

Today the BBC has 2 articles about Scotland. Please start to push hard against this in any way you can. There are lots of ways to try to do something.

The divide over Scotland’s gender laws www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60214574

What are the plans for transgender reforms in Scotland? www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-60221034

OP posts:
DomesticatedZombie · 17/02/2022 09:13

'debate has been raging for a while, with strong opinions on both sides, but the survey suggests that most people (67%) have not been following it closely...'.

This is the thing. No matter how much we think there's been so much 'sunlight', the large majority of people just aren't aware of what's happening.

OldCrone · 17/02/2022 09:14

This was covered on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning, about 20 minutes before the end.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0014gmj

ScrollingLeaves · 17/02/2022 09:15

It looks as though it is women themselves who are the most likely to be in favour on a number of the gender identity related questions.

On the other hand a large proportion of people seem not to have a clear idea of the whole issue in the first place.

littlbrowndog · 17/02/2022 09:16

Yeah a lot of people don’t seem to know what it actually means

DomesticatedZombie · 17/02/2022 09:17

And again, it's the specifics of the issue that people haven't really thought about. Shown here, with more support for a vague 'yes' to self ID, (40% supported allowing transgender people to self-identify) but:

'28% said that transgender people should be able to access single sex spaces even if they had not had gender reassignment surgery.'

Which is about the level of support that generally seems to come up when the situation is explained clearly.

'In contrast to the online debate, which is undoubtedly deeply polarised, the general public are not particularly sure and only about a third are following the issue closely.'

teawamutu · 17/02/2022 09:21

The awareness can only rise, though.

A couple of years ago it would have been in single figures.

Realityisreal · 17/02/2022 09:21

We've seen how easy it is to stifle debate and stop the spread of information. Even on this site we can't discuss it openly amongst people who are currently unaware but who may also be impacted by any reforms, we're pushed to an area where only those that are already aware will be.
If the trans position is so clear and virtuous why would they have any problem with everyone hearing their goals and debating any impact?

MajorCarolDanvers · 17/02/2022 09:21

The online debate is so toxic (on both sides) it just turns most people off and they don't want to engage.

If more people are to be engaged or persuaded that can only be done by changing the tone of the conversation.

There's too much shouting and unrecognisable terminology and it just turns people away.

Sexx · 17/02/2022 09:23

@ScrollingLeaves

It looks as though it is women themselves who are the most likely to be in favour on a number of the gender identity related questions.

On the other hand a large proportion of people seem not to have a clear idea of the whole issue in the first place.

This is the bit that got me; the survey results are split for men and women but how did they determine which respondents were women, and which kind of women? Statistics become meaningless.
OldCrone · 17/02/2022 09:25

And again, it's the specifics of the issue that people haven't really thought about. Shown here, with more support for a vague 'yes' to self ID, (40% supported allowing transgender people to self-identify) but:

'28% said that transgender people should be able to access single sex spaces even if they had not had gender reassignment surgery.'

So 12% of people said that trans people should be allowed to self identify, but they shouldn't be able to access single sex spaces (presumably those for the sex they identify as). I wonder what those people think self-ID means?

OldCrone · 17/02/2022 09:30

@MajorCarolDanvers

The online debate is so toxic (on both sides) it just turns most people off and they don't want to engage.

If more people are to be engaged or persuaded that can only be done by changing the tone of the conversation.

There's too much shouting and unrecognisable terminology and it just turns people away.

The toxicity is all coming from one side, though. We have polite debate here (MNHQ makes sure of that) and death and rape threats from TRAs on twitter.
StillWeRise · 17/02/2022 09:30

yes - not having thought about it and not knowing what terms mean is the key I think
a different survey which posed examples might show different answers
eg
a transwoman (male to female) has lived in their new gender for 20 years and has had full surgery (no penis) would you be happy to have them in
your women's book club?
female changing and showers at the gym?
providing intimate care such as bathing for an elderly woman?
as a nurse carrying out intimate procedures such as smear tests.

a transwoman (male to female) has been living in their new gender for 2 years, they have had no surgery (they still have a penis) and no hormone treatment, however they have long hair and dress in 'women's clothes' would you be happy to have them, in....
(same scenarios)

would also be interesting to ask men in what circs they would accept a transwoman or a transman in their single sex spaces, again clarifying what the terms mean

ScrollingLeaves · 17/02/2022 10:03

“StillWeRise

yes - not having thought about it and not knowing what terms mean is the key I think
a different survey which posed examples might show different answers
eg
a transwoman (male to female) has lived in their new gender for 20 years and has had full surgery (no penis) would you be happy to have them in
your women's book club?
female changing and showers at the gym?
providing intimate care such as bathing for an elderly woman?
as a nurse carrying out intimate procedures such as smear tests.

a transwoman (male to female) has been living in their new gender for 2 years, they have had no surgery (they still have a penis) and no hormone treatment, however they have long hair and dress in 'women's clothes' would you be happy to have them, in....
(same scenarios)

would also be interesting to ask men in what circs they would accept a transwoman or a transman in their single sex spaces, again clarifying what the terms mean“

How expensive would it be to commission a proper nationwide survey that makes the related issues clearer for the people answering in the way StillWeRise suggests?

DomesticatedZombie · 17/02/2022 10:49

@OldCrone

And again, it's the specifics of the issue that people haven't really thought about. Shown here, with more support for a vague 'yes' to self ID, (40% supported allowing transgender people to self-identify) but:

'28% said that transgender people should be able to access single sex spaces even if they had not had gender reassignment surgery.'

So 12% of people said that trans people should be allowed to self identify, but they shouldn't be able to access single sex spaces (presumably those for the sex they identify as). I wonder what those people think self-ID means?

I think it's a case of people just not thinking through what the consequences are.

Most people would agree that sure, anyone can feel anyway they wish, identify as they wish, call themselves what they wish.

They probably just don't join the dots and connect that with obtaining legal rights - such as accessing single sex spaces.

littlbrowndog · 17/02/2022 11:34

Interesting Twitter on this

Scotland
EdinburghFeminist · 17/02/2022 11:41

@ScrollingLeaves

“StillWeRise

yes - not having thought about it and not knowing what terms mean is the key I think
a different survey which posed examples might show different answers
eg
a transwoman (male to female) has lived in their new gender for 20 years and has had full surgery (no penis) would you be happy to have them in
your women's book club?
female changing and showers at the gym?
providing intimate care such as bathing for an elderly woman?
as a nurse carrying out intimate procedures such as smear tests.

a transwoman (male to female) has been living in their new gender for 2 years, they have had no surgery (they still have a penis) and no hormone treatment, however they have long hair and dress in 'women's clothes' would you be happy to have them, in....
(same scenarios)

would also be interesting to ask men in what circs they would accept a transwoman or a transman in their single sex spaces, again clarifying what the terms mean“

How expensive would it be to commission a proper nationwide survey that makes the related issues clearer for the people answering in the way StillWeRise suggests?

I have no idea but I would be very happy to do some gardening towards it.
CharlieParley · 17/02/2022 12:45

For anyone who is interested in seeing the actual questions, here is the link to the data set on the ComRes website:

comresglobal.com/polls/bbc-scotland-gender-recognition-act-poll-17-february/

It's one of the more awkward question sets I've seen around this issue, but the key take away for me is that the Scottish respondents polled are firmly divided on the issue of removing the requirement for a medical diagnosis. ComRes gives a total of 40% supportive or somewhat supportive and 38% opposed or somewhat opposed.

The margin of error given the Scottish population and sample size is 3%. That means the result is a statistical tie. Which means that on the question of bringing in self-id to get a GRC there is no majority support, whether relative or absolute, amongst survey respondents. Which brings this poll in line with every other poll we've seen on the subject.

Other interesting snippets are that more than one in five of the Scottish respondents believe that to be transgender means to be post-op (question 1).

If I had designed the survey, this is the point where I would have had worries. The given definition of transgender on question 2 was that this is "a general term for people whose gender identity is different from the sex registered at birth".

But on question 1, a third of people defined being transgender as a medical condition. Going forwards, did that third of respondents answer the following questions with their own definition in mind or that more general one given in question 2? There's no definition of "gender identity" anywhere and we know that if you leave key terms undefined, poll results become less reliable. There's also no instruction to stick to the definition given in question 2 for subsequent questions (this is something pollsters can do to ensure a better quality of results).

Question 7a (Table 11) gives a result of 61% of respondents agreeing that single-sex spaces should continue to be provided, with 29% undecided and only 10% against.

Support for allowing access to opposite-sex spaces is much smaller than expexted, only a relative majority of respondents support it (38%) with 25% against. Given that only a third said they had followed the debate closely, this is not an encouraging result for the Scottish Government.

It's a really uneven poll - general questions about access on sports, prisons, domestic violence services and public spaces that are single-sex are followed by just one question specifying who exactly should get access relevant to self-id - public spaces (defined as toilets and changing rooms). The least important in my view.

Here (Q12, Table 25) less than a third of respondents think that access should be granted to those who are not post-op and fully 15% think males should not be granted access to female-only public spaces in any case. 35% think access should only be granted to post-op males.

That's a completely different picture to the general question on public single-sex spaces where 38% agreed and 25% disagreed that male transgender people in general should be able to access female-only public spaces.

Anyone who claims that there is majority support for all male transgender people to access female-only public spaces on the basis of self-id is misrepresenting these findings.

And I expect had the same follow-up question been asked on prisons, sports and domestic violence services, we would again see that support is highly dependent on people having fully transitioned and that a sizeable minority do not support access at all. (To an even greater degree than those opposed to access to female-only public spaces.)

ScrollingLeaves · 17/02/2022 13:24

@CharlieParley 12:45
Thank you very much for that analysis.
It somehow gives a different impression from how it came across on the radio this morning.

Sexnotgender · 17/02/2022 13:26

28% said that transgender people should be able to access single sex spaces even if they had not had gender reassignment surgery.

So an overwhelming 72% don’t think transgender people should be able to have access to single sex spaces unless they’ve had surgery.

Realityisreal · 17/02/2022 14:14

I take back this comment Even on this site we can't discuss it openly amongst people who are currently unaware but who may also be impacted by any reforms, we're pushed to an area where only those that are already aware will be.
Excellent thread on AIBU openly discussing the issues.

MathSage · 17/02/2022 16:44

To add to CharlieParley's excellent analysis, I'd like to mention that 60% supported or strongly supported making it a criminal offence to make a false application or statutory declaration for gender recognition while 16% opposed.

There were other answers that were conveniently ignored in the BBC's article.

On access to single-sex spaces such as public toilets and changing rooms (Q12), the document summarised the result as 28% agreeing that "Do not need GRS", in fact 50% thought that Transgender women either should not use single-sex women's spaces at all or only if they've had GRS.

54% Agreed that "Transgender people should disclose to potential sexual partners their sex registered at birth". 18% thought that "Transgender people should not have to disclose to potential sexual partners their sex registered at birth" (Q14)

Questions on under 16s:

"A transgender person aged under 16 should be allowed to live as the gender they identify with at school without their parents' consent" - Somewhat Agree/Strongly Agree 28%; Somewhat Disagree/Strongly Disagree 43% (Q16)

"A transgender person aged under 16 should be allowed to use the toilet/changing room/communal accommodation on school trips of the gender they identify with, rather than their sex as registered at birth" - Somewhat Agree/Strongly Agree 25%; Somewhat Disagree/Strongly Disagree 41% (also Q16)

"A transgender person aged under 16 should be allowed access, with psychological support, to hormone blocking medication which can delay the onset of puberty" - Somewhat Agree/Strongly Agree 29%; Somewhat Disagree/Strongly Disagree 41% (Q17)

"A transgender person aged under 18 should be able to access gender reassignment surgery to permanently transition from their sex registered at birth to the gender they identify as" - Somewhat Agree/Strongly Agree 23%; Somewhat Disagree/Strongly Disagree 47% (also Q17)

"A transgender person aged under 16 should be allowed access to cross-sex hormones which can change secondary sex characteristics" - Somewhat Agree/Strongly Agree 21%; Somewhat Disagree/Strongly Disagree 49% (also Q17)

I wondered whether answering the survey questions got respondents thinking.

MajorCarolDanvers · 17/02/2022 17:02

The toxicity is all coming from one side, though. We have polite debate here (MNHQ makes sure of that) and death and rape threats from TRAs on twitter

Sure on here yes it's pretty polite (mostly). But I'm afraid that generally I see toxicity and intolerance on both sides in other forums, on other social media and it's a turn off to most.

DomesticatedZombie · 17/02/2022 17:25

72% don’t think transgender people should be able to have access to single sex spaces unless they’ve had surgery.

The level of awareness and understanding among the general public is staggeringly low. People often think 'transwoman' means someone born female. They think that a 'cross dresser' is different from a 'transwoman'. They think that people can somehow literally change sex.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/02/2022 18:52

@Realityisreal

“I take back this comment Even on this site we can't discuss it openly amongst people who are currently unaware but who may also be impacted by any reforms, we're pushed to an area where only those that are already aware will be.
Excellent thread on AIBU openly discussing the issues.“

Please would you give a link if you can? I couldn’t find it earlier.

OldCrone · 17/02/2022 20:16

@Realityisreal

I take back this comment Even on this site we can't discuss it openly amongst people who are currently unaware but who may also be impacted by any reforms, we're pushed to an area where only those that are already aware will be. Excellent thread on AIBU openly discussing the issues.
Is this the thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4483606-MPs-will-debate-changing-the-Gender-Recognition-Act