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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another legal challenge in a school

91 replies

McDuffy · 14/02/2022 06:33

School said boy, six, would be transphobic if he expressed confusion over classmate

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b1d3c552-8cec-11ec-87eb-ee84fabc72c9?shareToken=d3ade170b13d61b9d827b727ab8c5ab8

I have a 5yo and can empathise with these parents

OP posts:
DoubleTweenQueen · 14/02/2022 09:16

This will be interesting to follow, if Dept of Ed are defending. This goes far wider than being counter to these parents' Christian beliefs. CofE school too
Similar issue in Catholic schools.
It's the extrapolation of the Gender Reassignment PC in Equality Act to children and teens in school - gender as in sex, now hijacked to equate to gender identity.
Have discussed with my school - they privately agree, but feel hamstrung.

Christienne · 14/02/2022 09:22

And yet, on the TWAW men thread, one poster asserts…

And no one says trans women are women "in the same way" as cis women. No one said there's no differences whatsoever

I’ll say here what I said there… it’s gaslightly as fuck.

Ylvamoon · 14/02/2022 09:22

I feel sorry for both children.

Surely at that age, they are so innocent when it comes to sex/ gender. They just see things as black & white in order to understand their surroundings.

Looking at this from an adult perspective is so wrong.

DoubleTweenQueen · 14/02/2022 09:28

Yes, it confuses their development. No-one has any right to do that. Our natal sex is a constant on which identity can be built. It's an immutable foundation.
This ideology damages that, for the individual and those around them.

Can't fathom how we got here. Nightmare.

Nikki078 · 14/02/2022 09:36

[quote Rightsraptor]@Nikki078: the trans person is really female or male. Just not necessarily the one they want you to think they are.[/quote]
Yes I know. Notice though, you did not put this in inverted commas in your comment. School did.

Snugglepumpkin · 14/02/2022 09:38

Why are they being told they have to think something that is the very definition of not real is real?

This is the intentional gaslighting of children & is a deeply harmful form of abuse which can have a devastating effect on healthy development.

RoyalCorgi · 14/02/2022 10:07

Don't the Cornwall schools guidelines go against the DfE's own current guidance?

Yes. It's absolutely baffling that the DfE is siding with the school in this case. Their own guidelines published in 2020 make it quite clear, for example, that schools shouldn't teach children that it's possible to be born in the wrong body.

The other thing, of course, is that the Cornwall guidelines (which I assume are based on the Allsorts transgender toolkit adopted by local authorities) are quite clearly in breach of equality legislation. Oxfordshire local authority dropped its use of the toolkit when threatened with legal action by a teenage girl, and a number of other local authorities followed suit.

Finally, as others have pointed out, thanks to the Forstater ruling, gender critical beliefs are now protected in law. It's interesting that the parents' case is based on the Equality Act's inclusion of religious belief as a protected identity, but possibly this case was launched before the Forstater ruling.

Goatsaregreat · 14/02/2022 10:39

The DfE are in the embarrassing position of having recommended the Cornwall guidelines to schools via their Equality Guidance (which also recommends Stonewall and GIRES) while ignoring every other organisation relating to all the other protected characteristics Hmm.
The Cornwall guidelines are marginally better than most of the others in the sense that educators obviously had some influence on the content as opposed to completely unqualified trans lobbyists. BUT they still promote the toxic and dangerous idea of removing parental rights from vulnerable children in favour of random adults in schools:
"A parent or guardian may not always be the most supportive or appropriate person to assist the young person through transitioning. It may not be necessary for a parent or guardian to provide permission for a Trans pupil or student to take steps to transition as there may be issues raised of Fraser competence if parents will not consent".

ArtemesiaK · 14/02/2022 10:42

I posted this in October last year and was immediately jumped on for using the C-word (Christian)! I had no idea there was so much anti-Christian feeling
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4375549-Christian-parents-sue-government-over-schools-transgender-policies?msgid=111647442#111647442

Blessex · 14/02/2022 10:45

This will ‘peak’ a few more 1000 people

drhf · 14/02/2022 10:47

The letter from the school’s head teacher and the chairwoman of the governors warned that pupils would be viewed as transphobic if they demonstrated an “inability to believe a transgender person is actually a ‘real’ female or male”.

So the school considers that "inability to believe" is a disciplinary issue. What a fine tradition they are in. Socrates was executed for "failing to acknowledge the gods that the city acknowledges" and Galileo was kept under house arrest for having "held and believed a doctrine which is false".

What would this school's view be if the evangelical parents in this case wanted children punished for an "inability to believe" that Jesus could return tomorrow (as Maranatha Christians believe)?

Blessex · 14/02/2022 11:01

What gets me is how regressive gender ideology is. Why can’t a boy wear a dress and be effeminate without being told that he is actually therefore a girl. It’s old fashioned gender stereotypes being reinforced. And what if he is gay? Are they trying to straighten the kid out by say he is a girl? I was listening to irreversible damage audiobook and Abigail Shrier was talking about how so many girls are now identifying as trans in the school. But there were now no lesbian girls. Hmmmmmm. Notice a trend?

MagpiePi · 14/02/2022 11:05

A child's declaration that they are a cat, or a superhero, or that they are going to marry their daddy and live on the moon, are taken as an exploration of how they fit into the world and how they imagine things to be, but as soon as a child mentions anything about their sex or gender or behaves in a non-stereotypical way, it is an immutable truth that cannot only not be questioned, it must be affirmed and reinforced by everyone around the child.

It is fecking ridiculous...

DoubleTweenQueen · 14/02/2022 11:20

@Goatsaregreat Yes, the Intercom Trust are cited/linked from Gvmnt guidance - mad isn’t it!
Here’s the Cornwall guidance - seems to be 2015 is the latest? Link from this page:
www.cornwall.gov.uk/people-and-communities/equality-and-diversity/cornwall-schools-transgender-guidance/

RoyalCorgi · 14/02/2022 11:33

Another thought. Can "gender reassignment" as a protected characteristic be said to apply to small children? Surely it only applies to adults? A child can't be said to be in the process of having gender reassigned, can it?

Also, this is spot on:

So the school considers that "inability to believe" is a disciplinary issue. What a fine tradition they are in. Socrates was executed for "failing to acknowledge the gods that the city acknowledges" and Galileo was kept under house arrest for having "held and believed a doctrine which is false".

The idea that you can be forced to believe something that is untrue takes us back to the Dark Ages. I guess what they're asking is that the child pretends to believe it.

Eppur si muove, as Galileo said.

YouSetTheTone · 14/02/2022 11:35

@OldCrone

As a result, the parents withdrew both their sons from the school and have recently been granted permission for a judicial challenge to the Department for Education’s decision to disseminate the guidelines to state schools.

Don't the Cornwall schools guidelines go against the DfE's own current guidance?

The DofE doesn’t care about that. I engaged in conversation with Nick Gibb at DofE (when he was there) about how Stonewall’s resources contradict the govt’s own guidance, and was told at the end of lengthy SW word salad, ‘there is no place for discrimination in the education system.’

Obviously it IS ok to discriminate though - but only against girls who might want single sex spaces/ sport and healthy boundaries. (And against children who wish to tell the truth).

DomesticatedZombie · 14/02/2022 11:51

More from CC: christianconcern.com/news/parents-challenge-of-trans-school-policies-goes-forward/

Goatsaregreat · 14/02/2022 12:22

YouSetTheTone
I also had a similarly creepy letter from Nick Gibb dismissing the safeguarding concerns raised about mixed sex changing rooms, showers and toilets in schools.
I suspect he was very influential (along with the self interested senior civil servant Slater) in enabling Stonewall, GIRES etc to gain privileged access schools and children with zero due diligence being conducted (let alone awareness of the Nolan principles). Which is why we are in this mess.

Cailleach1 · 14/02/2022 13:01

Irrespective of membership of any particular religious belief, I would regard myself as an abusive parent if I told my child they were a sex which they were not. Or, insisted a male or female they encountered was a sex which they were not.

I'd have it weighing on my conscience. However, with all the abuse against women and children which has been occurred in Ireland, I know that many in roles of authority don't give a toss about how children and women are treated or damaged. The shame is when they get away with it and are not held accountable by their supervisors or watchdogs.

i was going to say abuse in the past. However, I do know that the Irish gov't and public services are locking women up with convicted male rapists and paedophiles at the moment. Also, in many other areas in Irish life, the overwhelmingly male government are active in trying to rip away safety and fairness for Irish women.

This is the chappie (of course it's a bro) minister for education who heads the department which are striving for girls' safe single sex spaces to be removed. Spaces where they are in states of undress and will vulnerable to predatory behaviours such as secret cameras filming them increased. Indeed, spaces where they may at the very least be stressed or intimidated or self conscious because they may be groups of teenage boys. At a point where intimate care is taking place. No Minister, we will not pretend it is a progressive move to make access easier for other chappies. However, you try to launch it. It is almost as if this generation of Irish male politicians are the same as the ones of the past. Just as careless (if not complicit) in allowing an abusive environment, and repackaged under the pretence and guise of a fake 'progressive' instead of 'Catholic'.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/o-gorman-unisex-toilets-make-school-life-easier-wq5p0g570

kildare-nationalist.ie/2021/04/17/campaign-group-calls-for-rethink-on-putting-mixed-sex-toilets-into-irish-schools/

Cailleach1 · 14/02/2022 13:08

Also have to mention an Interview I say with Amnesty Ireland's dude. He/she/furry was deploring how the Catholic Church dictated to the country in the past, and this will never happen again. Against self appointed, authoritarian movements, you'd think.

Then I remembered when this wee wannabe Ayatollah signed a letter which actually called for political and media representation to be withdrawn from women who have the temerity to be vocal in how they are being trodden on. I don't think even those with croziers who posed as righteous outdid these repackaged misogynistic 'progressive' dudes rights movement. Which is what Amnasty Ireland appears to have become.

Musomama1 · 14/02/2022 13:19

This is wrong wrong wrong. You can't justify such a hard line over what is an ideology, especially to children! I would make this an opportunity to educate my child on this, but come on, they are so young!!
Even in a faith school I bet kids could say they don't believe in religion and not get the same treatment.
There needs to be a way of saying, respect the other child for the way they want to live and who they want to be.

It all smacks of extreme laziness and avoiding real conversations.

Musomama1 · 14/02/2022 13:24

Oh my goodness it is a faith school! Wtf?!

Cailleach1 · 14/02/2022 13:26

My opinion is that is even more a transgression that many other ideologies or religions. You are actively falsifying the material world in front of the child's eyes. Not just exploring an abstract and theoretical/theological idea.

DoubleTweenQueen · 14/02/2022 13:28

@Musomama1

Oh my goodness it is a faith school! Wtf?!
Ask questions about what’s being taught and upheld in your local schools!!
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