Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

High Court Battle - pronouns

187 replies

PigeonLittle · 14/02/2022 01:18

Not sure if this is being discussed here, couldn't see it after a brief look.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10507853/Christian-doctor-David-Mackereth-sacked-trans-views-fight-High-Court.html

OP posts:
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 16/02/2022 12:58

@Jux

Vis a vis lying.

If you've just sworn on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you can hardly be ordered to lie can you? If makes no sense and turns the law inside out.

Up until recently this was almost exactly what the Equal Treatment Bench Book advised judges and magistrates to impose.
ScrollingLeaves · 16/02/2022 18:27

“Jux

Vis a vis lying.

If you've just sworn on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, then you can hardly be ordered to lie can you? If makes no sense and turns the law inside out.”

And isn’t a Gender Recognition Certificate, or something related, a “Legal Fiction”? I am confused about where the legal fiction applies but think it is worrying a fiction can be legal.

Jux · 16/02/2022 23:12

I was under the impression that very few tw had GRCs. I think I would find it easier to use preferred pronouns if a GRC had been obtained, but otherwise it would be very worrying.

SolasAnla · 18/02/2022 00:31

Motorina
In practice it's rare, and I'm amazed his A+E job allowed him to decline to treat all trans patients, which is what the tribunal determination says happened.

Had not treated and declined are 2 very different conclusions.

Section 70 to 73 did not provide evidence of a decline to treat all trans patients just a statement about a remembered conversation which was disputed.

The tribunal determination was that OH said this happened.

If OH's version was accurate, OH should have raised this potential refusal to preform any assessments for a vulnerable cohort of applicants. OH should not be looking for an exemption from a trainee who would use a name but not 'wrong sex' pronouns and or titles rather OH should have been asking HR to review the employment offer.

Providing treatment while offending the recipient in not optimal but possible.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus
white patient refused an South Asian consultant anaesthetist
.. that he'd done so to some extent because he felt that his employers in the Trust couldn't be relied upon to have his back.

Is this not informed consent in action?
"Person X is the only one who can do the proceedure, without this proceedure you can die"
"I know, but people with [Z] cant touch me"

And its why the process is before the paitent is legally incapacitated get to sign a "we can do anything if it saves your life" consent for operations.

Without consent the HCP would be engaging in an assault so had to hand off. The assault bit is dismissed by TRA who claim specific or limiting consent can be ignored.

Then the Trust have 3 (?) options
•refuse to provide an alternative at all
•provide an alternative once one becomes available (but other staff scheduled could refuse to work)
•obtain a court order to allow the consultant provide the service.

The Trust are unlikely write a policy document to position the incident as the male paitent seeing a female doctor demanding a male doctor and being told he is mistaken as the consultant is male.

Brighton Trust policy was that a woman objecting to a male who identified as a woman on a ward was to be treated by staff as if she was a White woman objecting to a Black woman on the ward and is to be told by staff there is no man on the ward (The racist man = black woman trope was accepted/invisable). It was a direct instruction by a Employer to an Employee to lie to a patient.

The Hospital also needed a system so She/They Jane (a male with GRC) will not end up treat John who is a "female staff only consent" patient, all without disclosing Jane's PC to other staff or John. The Trust has liability issues if it and/or Jane gets sued by John and Jane can sue as an employee with a PC.

Thats why the wording sex or gender became so important in the Scottish Rape legislation.

Can a male insert objects and body parts inside the Witness who consented on the condition the State appointed expert witness was female and that male not commit an (sexual) assault?

On right to use a pronoun v. a right to have a specific pronoun/word spoken by another person within the context of manifestations of belief.

Joe Bloggs, male, not married & never was, no mental issues, is not within the protected characteristic of gender reassignment (as male is not proposing to undergo, is not undergoing or has not undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the male's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex).

Decides, as an act of civil disobedience, to use the title Mrs, first name IdoBlowjobs, surname BlowjobsAreFun, pronoun they/them.

What legislation provides Joe the right to be addressed by these: the name(s), the title and the pronoun.

To rephrase this what legislation obliges CitizenU to speak someone else's chosen name, chosen title and chosen pronoun.

The judgement argues/concludes that there is legislation which obliges CitizenU to use/speak pronouns and or titles and also that CitizenU has no right to silence.

I dont thing the law as written will support either conclusion.

Point of order has the Court supporting first party verified title and pronoun documentation for Emma or Burton J or Langstaff?

Anyway that leaves the employment contract with attached policy and proceedure.

Policy is the written rule, the internal legislation of an organisation. The umbrella. Per policy 'aim/action A' is deliberately included, deliberatly excluded or not considered while the policy was formulated. So include and exclude are under the umbrella, while not considered is out in the rain.

Process is the way the task is done there can be many processes which results in the task been "done".
Documented process is the way the task is done to ensure the policy is followed narrowing the way the task is done to a single method. Organisations use it for human resource management quality control.

Training is primarily about process.

Section 48 OH indicated that OH would use/document pronoun other than she/he if requested.
If Meow is requested are all subsequent staff legally and/or contractually obliged to use this pronoun?

** Section 50 evidence is presented that in 2017 the DWP process failed.
HH apparently managed a compliant without referring to the written policy (no151) or a review of any written process documentation.

No process documentation was created even though the GRA 2004 Section 22 has data disclosure obligations.

NB if HH had investigated at that stage the matter should have been escalated up to the ranks. Clear written process which aligned with the written policy should have been produced and handed out at the training.

The enforcement then relys on unwritten policy no 151 is silent on titles and pronouns and unwritten procedure, just a general understandings of what should be done.

If the review and update had happened there would be a clear contractual obligation of follow the policy and get paid to do so. That could be a lawfull contractual term.

Adam as male and Eve as female, Created in God's Image, Original Sin, Marraige, Babies as branding, an origin story and/or actual belief is a foundation teaching to Jewish, Christian and Islamic education.

No clear policy no clear procedure indicates no consideration of PC religion and beleif.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 18/02/2022 01:47

@SolasAnla that's a lot of words to demonstrate a lack of understanding of what the thread is about.

SolasAnla · 18/02/2022 10:24

[quote vivariumvivariumsvivaria]@SolasAnla that's a lot of words to demonstrate a lack of understanding of what the thread is about.[/quote]
Bloke claims to be 'sacked' because the employer claim that it has a contractual right to insist he has to use title's and pronoun's therefore using the name of a 'service user' plus "you" was not sufficient to do the job.

100% can be a vital element of doing the job. Employer failed to include a clause for title and pronoun use in the contract.

Decision was that law (and employer policy) gives everybody has a right of "ownership" of a title and a style and a pronoun others must use to describe them. So lawfully 'sacked'.

Decision position "dignity and respect" obliges sex specific language used to indicate one sex be manifested by CitizenU to describe a member of the other sex.
So when sex is known
•she= female/woman
•he= male/man
•they=???

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:02

There’s a rumour this decision will be handed down today.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:29

Dr Mackereth lost his case and is appealing again. The EAT judged that his beliefs do meet the Grainger criteria and are ‘protected’, but his employer (the DWP) didn’t necessarily err in deciding that his beliefs couldn’t be manifested in the workplace without causing offence. Basically.

snoochieboochies · 29/06/2022 13:51

Jewel1968 · 14/02/2022 07:29

I don't understand how it links to religion? Am I missing something? I had expected the argument to be around science.

Because the Bible specifically references man and woman, children of god, and holds this harmonious duo in high regard. This is similar to our observations. Scientific method doesn't need to be employed to know people are male and female, as we can simply observe it (only part of scientific method, sans any testing) It's empirical evidence; we are male and female. Humans can't change sex, again observed. No tests needed.

Circumferences · 29/06/2022 13:52

Sending good luck to the appeal application

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:55

It’s definitely linked to Christian belief. God made man and woman, and made woman different to man. Forcing someone who holds that belief to say a person is a woman when they are a man represents an interference with their religious beliefs. It doesn’t matter that some Christians don’t mind; others do, for the honest reason of their religious conscience.

Musomama1 · 29/06/2022 14:14

Isn't this like that cake shop thing in Ireland? The Christian owners were found to be in the wrong.

But then aren't the Dr's views woriads? From a GC point of view and protected in the workplace?

Have nothing but sympathy for him, saw him being bullied on daytime TV by this dreadful TR person.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 14:27

Got a few TRAs saying “There we go! Forstater will lose because you’re not allowed to misgender at work!”

  1. Forstater didn’t misgender anyone
  2. There were no trans people at work
  3. Forstater is willing to use preferred pronouns
The difference between Mackereth’s and Forstater’s cases is that his ‘behaviour’ directly affected the experiences of people with a protected characteristic (gender reassignment) and hers did not.

I still think accommodation should have been made for Mackereth’s beliefs (he could have used first names for his clients rather than “Sir/Madam”, or patients requiring sex-incongruent pronouns could have been allocated to someone else.

But the two cases are very different on the facts.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 14:29

‘Isn't this like that cake shop thing in Ireland? The Christian owners were found to be in the wrong.’

A decision I still think is bizarre. I have no issue with people’s sexuality but I don’t believe anyone has a right to make other people express ideas that conflict with their faith.

Ohnohedident · 29/06/2022 14:30

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 13:29

Dr Mackereth lost his case and is appealing again. The EAT judged that his beliefs do meet the Grainger criteria and are ‘protected’, but his employer (the DWP) didn’t necessarily err in deciding that his beliefs couldn’t be manifested in the workplace without causing offence. Basically.

So are they saying no religious person can work with the public? Thats nuts.

Ohnohedident · 29/06/2022 14:31

I'm prity sure the Christian bakers won their case.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 14:35

‘So are they saying no religious person can work with the public? Thats nuts.’

Unless they are prepared to say things they don’t believe, that is the implication, yes. So that seems unsound to me.

Mia85 · 29/06/2022 14:40

Ohnohedident · 29/06/2022 14:31

I'm prity sure the Christian bakers won their case.

Yes they did. They lost at the earlier stage but won in the Supreme Court www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2017-0020.html

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 14:45

Hopefully Mackereth will also win in the SC. I don’t think transgender patients should be forced to see him, and they should be offered an alternative assessor if there is another person available, but the fact is they haven’t changed sex, and his right not to believe otherwise is protected.

ImAvingOops · 29/06/2022 14:47

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 14:58

Then we get the ‘of course the belief is protected but the manifestation of the belief isn’t, therefore you can’t manifest it at all!’ crew.

No. The judgments to date (rightly) mean the protection of the belief does not automatically protect the manifestation of the belief, so whether or not your actions were protected needs to be decided on the basis of whether the actions undermined the rights of others, and to what extent.

So it might be that if Mackereth had said, at work, to a patient, ‘Please be aware that I am gender critical’ but had avoided using preferred pronouns (ie using a name instead), the outcome would have been different.

It is not the case that manifestation of GC belief at work is a sacking offence.

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 15:00

Not that he was sacked (he quit). Again that makes it different to Forstater. But Forstater may or may not have been employed under the auspices of the Equality Act, so again she may fail at the hurdle.

No matter. The belief is protected and eventually, either employers will have to find compromises, or the public will demand a legal change, because this can’t go on forever.

mumda · 29/06/2022 15:34

"A Christian doctor"
Erm, a medical doctor is probably the more relevant qualification for them to mention.

GCRich · 29/06/2022 15:35

achillestoes · 29/06/2022 14:29

‘Isn't this like that cake shop thing in Ireland? The Christian owners were found to be in the wrong.’

A decision I still think is bizarre. I have no issue with people’s sexuality but I don’t believe anyone has a right to make other people express ideas that conflict with their faith.

No-one is forced to express ideas that are in conflict with their faith.

However, if one is in the business of writing down other people's words for them one does not have a right to pick and choose which belief groups one chooses to accept work from.

If all of their cakes had standard messages then no court would have demanded that they custom make specific messages for people who wanted them. Had they just used standard words and sold cakes with "on your wedding day" or "happy birthday" then they would have never had to do what they did not want to do.

GCRich · 29/06/2022 15:36

Ohnohedident · 29/06/2022 14:31

I'm prity sure the Christian bakers won their case.

In which case ignore my last post!