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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender ideology and safeguarding.

41 replies

MoetLove · 13/02/2022 12:35

Name changed as potentially outing.

I’ve noticed more and more the glaring safeguarding red flags surrounding gender ideology, and despite being generally supportive towards people living their lives as they wish, free from discrimination, I’m increasingly seeing it as a big excuse to behave in a challenging way and no one can question it.

I personally know two trans people - a ftm 13 year old and a late 40s mtf.

The child is in secondary school, has autistic traits which have been ignored, shows signs of hyper sexuality - talks about sex all the time, talks about the many people she’s had sex with, displays odd sexual behaviour around other children - all things that should alert adults if possible abuse.
Several adults, including family members, have reported to the parents and to school that they have concerns, one person talked to her police husband about it to ask what should be done. Responses are resoundingly “you’re transphobic to consider this”. It’s being seen by all as a queer youth expressing “himself” and therefore not an issue.

Second case - late 40s male, I worked with him for several years, no longer work there but am in touch with her and several other past colleagues.
She transitioned 18 months ago, no hormones or surgery yet - although I suppose this could have been done without anyone knowing, but no one has seen any physical changes in her.
The office is informal, 20 people, 13 men 7 women. Loos have always been unisex and no one has had problems until colleague transitioned.
Up until transitioning Jane (not real name) was efficient, a hugely valued member of the team, was friendly and immersed into the friendship group that developed, to the point where we’d holiday together, his wife and children became great friends with me and my children.
Once transitioning started, (I no longer worked there) which was basically wearing revealing outfits, lots of makeup, everyone was very supportive of their friend and fell over backwards to see him as a woman and be supportive. His wife tried, but the relationship ended within 6 months, and she (my male ex colleague) no longer sees her children, it was all very distressing all round.

The colleague now does very little work, makes jokes about her silly lady brain, cries if anything goes wrong or if anyone questions whether she’s finished any tasks.
This is annoying many at work, but in general they, particularly the men, are being very supportive still.
The loo situation was never an issue, but now Jane makes a point of following female colleagues into the loo, asking if they have tampons, trying to engage in talk about their sex lives, suggesting girls nights out, sleepovers, and making them feel very uncomfortable in a way that never happened before. This has been reported but the men don’t see the problem (I think they think the loos are an informal hub for girly chats, which was never the case) so it relies on individuals pointing out to Jane that she’s making them feel uncomfortable, which leads to tears and division in the office.

In both these cases, the only trans people I personally know, there are huge red flags, but the majority of people around think it’s all fine, and that those who take issue are doing so to be transphobic.

I don’t understand why so many intelligent adults are overlooking obviously signs that should be investigated, and instead just applying a blanket “they’re trans” which renders them untouchable, and in the child’s case makes them beyond needing therapy despite the many concerning behaviours that are obvious to anyone who meets them.

How have we got to this point? How do we turn it around when the majority are so sold?

OP posts:
Hoardasurass · 13/02/2022 12:58

I completely agree especially as an autistic women who was lucky enough to be old enough to have had watchful waiting instead of affirmation therapy and can see that we're I a teen now I would most likely have been pushed down the trans route. I personally blame Stonewall and gendered intelligence for the mess we find ourselves in

Abunchofyellowroses · 13/02/2022 13:03

Really excellent post. I completely agree that concerns about safeguarding are pushed aside by the rush to seem inclusive and “kind”. I’m baffled by it. Last summer the news was full of reports about how girls and school had been attacked and harassed by male pupils. Now it’s as if that has all been forgotten.

Justme56 · 13/02/2022 13:35

Asking people about their sex lives in the workplace comes under sexual harassment legislation. It doesn’t matter the sex or gender of the person committing it or who it is aimed at. I think the company are on dodgy ground if they ignore it.

SapphosRock · 13/02/2022 13:43

OP I think your experience accurately reflects what is happening to many people.

Everyone wants to be on the progressive, right thinking side. Nobody wants to be transphobic. Men are less affected by trans activism than women so they don't care.

Unless someone is involved in the LGBT community they likely think supporting trans rights is an extension of supporting gay rights. They miss all the misogyny and homophobia.

Goatsaregreat · 13/02/2022 13:57

Thank you for the thread OP. It's vital that everyone is aware of how children are being used to promote this ideology with dismantling safeguarding for children appearing to be a central component of tra action.
Children and schools are relentlessly targeted, organisations like the NSPCC captured, schools advised that parents may be actual threats to their children if they fail to uncritically affirm their child believing they've been born in the wrong body and (shamefully), some in the NHS push untested for purpose medication at young children. Organisations like GIRES have produced safeguarding breaching "training" material for adults working with children.

The Observer concluded the following after the Keira Bell judgement:
Children are not pawns to be deployed in adult debates about identity.

Sadly that is exactly what they appear to be. Sad

Linguini · 13/02/2022 16:25

...talks about the many people she’s had sex with

The 13 year old is saying this? It's illegal to have sex with anyone under 16 in the UK.

And a police officer said it's transphobic to talk about it?

Am I confused or did I just read a police officer has flippantly dismissed a case of underage sex because the girl identifies as a boy?

DdraigGoch · 13/02/2022 17:22

In both cases, this is something which should be taken up officially. Not just asking a police officer husband, there needs to be a paper trail. Safe Schools Alliance may be able to help in the first case. Also: www.gov.uk/report-child-abuse

For the second case, formal grievances about sexual harassment need to be raised. Poor performance at work is an irritant but ultimately is the employer's problem (I know that everyone else often ends up picking up the slack but the employer is the one who pays the wages). Sexual harassment however unequivocally impacts upon employees.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 13/02/2022 17:23

We are not allowed to point out the glaringly obvious differences and reasons of the two very distinct groups of those claiming a trans identity.

MoetLove · 13/02/2022 17:56

@Justme56

Asking people about their sex lives in the workplace comes under sexual harassment legislation. It doesn’t matter the sex or gender of the person committing it or who it is aimed at. I think the company are on dodgy ground if they ignore it.
The women who work there know, but as they’ve always been such a close-knit team and Jane is/was their friend they would rather not take this route. His behaviour pre transition was not an issue at all, and now they’re trying to sort it themselves. I imagine if it carries on they’ll have no option but to go down the sexual harassment route.
OP posts:
Bordois · 13/02/2022 17:59

@Whatsnewpussyhat

We are not allowed to point out the glaringly obvious differences and reasons of the two very distinct groups of those claiming a trans identity.
Yep, as I said on the other thread - we get wokescolded when we use the term trans in relation to fetishists, but we also get wokescolded and are actually banned from using the term that more accurately describes them and separates them out from other trans people.
MoetLove · 13/02/2022 18:08

@Linguini

...talks about the many people she’s had sex with

The 13 year old is saying this? It's illegal to have sex with anyone under 16 in the UK.

And a police officer said it's transphobic to talk about it?

Am I confused or did I just read a police officer has flippantly dismissed a case of underage sex because the girl identifies as a boy?

The police officer is the husband of a woman who has already reported this to school, it wasn’t a formal report, so that’s probably the next step that needs to be taken.

Those who are concerned had hoped that school would step up, but they appear scared of any backlash. The child’s parents are aware and have (I am told) sought advice from a LGBTQ+ group in the nearest city, where the party line is that X is exploring his sexuality and that he should be supported to do so safely.

Safe schools alliance information has been sent to relevant staff (safeguarding lead, SENCO, headteacher, HOY, form teacher), all are acting like their hands are tied.

It’s felt that the talk of having sex is bravado, and that the child hasn’t actually had sex, but even so the behaviour should be ringing alarm bells, but the grown ups in the room are scared to take action.

I’m not particularly asking for advice, in the child’s case attempts at reporting are being made, this will not be left.

I’m aware that in the scheme of things I know only two trans people, both present troublesome circumstances to those around them, and those around them are terrified to take action.
I don’t know if this is unusual or representative of the movement. My examples seem extreme - the amount of dismissing obvious issues that wouldn’t happen with another 13 year old girl or a 40s year old man. It’s weird how paralysed everyone is around them.

OP posts:
RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 13/02/2022 18:23

The idea that there are different rules is definitely a thing, to the point that the show Family Guy featured this gem, a couple of years ago:

As has often been said on here, (biologically male) trans people are the new “sacred caste”, and whenever there’s a sacred caste individual or group, it blows safeguarding right open.

The biologically male trans person you know is a classic example of this, in the way this person is having a negative impact on other people, particularly women, with their behaviour, but it’s all dismissed/denied/minimised. No safeguarding for the women in this situation, however distressing they may find it.

Whereas with the young biologically female person (it’s a great demonstration of how, as always, there’s no symmetry between the sexes) the only person being directly harmed is in fact the young person themself, who should be being protected, but isn’t.

Glad you and others are nonetheless doing your best to try to protect the troubled, vulnerable 13 yo.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 13/02/2022 18:27

Jane makes a point of following female colleagues into the loo, asking if they have tampons, trying to engage in talk about their sex lives, suggesting girls nights out, sleepovers, and making them feel very uncomfortable in a way that never happened before. This has been reported but the men don’t see the problem (I think they think the loos are an informal hub for girly chats, which was never the case)

How very Yaniv.

And what a very odd view of what goes on in women's spaces that is almost entirely centred on the perception of one sex that isn't in those spaces and somehow being allowed to displace the perspective of those who do. Added to which, it feels like one individual's immersive fiction is permitted to create an unwanted and uncomfortable reality for others, with no pushback.

I'm stumped for an explanation as to what dynamics might be in play in these scenarios. Hmm

OldCrone · 13/02/2022 18:28

It’s felt that the talk of having sex is bravado, and that the child hasn’t actually had sex, but even so the behaviour should be ringing alarm bells, but the grown ups in the room are scared to take action.

What action would the school take if this child didn't identify as trans? Why is this child being treated differently (worse) than other children? This child deserves the same protection as other children.

MoetLove · 13/02/2022 18:37

@OldCrone

It’s felt that the talk of having sex is bravado, and that the child hasn’t actually had sex, but even so the behaviour should be ringing alarm bells, but the grown ups in the room are scared to take action.

What action would the school take if this child didn't identify as trans? Why is this child being treated differently (worse) than other children? This child deserves the same protection as other children.

I imagine there’s a process that should be followed, but the presence of trans appears to make certain behaviours acceptable (?).

I don’t have any experience of safeguarding in schools so I’m not sure.

In the case of the child this will be escalated, but it’s proving to be harder than it should be.

OP posts:
ShinyShingles59 · 13/02/2022 18:46

@Hoardasurass

I completely agree especially as an autistic women who was lucky enough to be old enough to have had watchful waiting instead of affirmation therapy and can see that we're I a teen now I would most likely have been pushed down the trans route. I personally blame Stonewall and gendered intelligence for the mess we find ourselves in
You wouldn't be "pushed down" any path that you wouldn't deliberately take yourself.
MoetLove · 13/02/2022 18:48

@ShinyShingles59 there’s another recent thread about this with input from autistic women who explain why this could easily happen.

OP posts:
Barrawarra · 13/02/2022 18:55

Agreed OP, this is the main concern about the whole gender ideology issue. Safeguarding issues being minimised or treated as the unspeakable. It’s regressing on decades of progress in naming and challenging abuse.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/02/2022 19:01

Unless someone is involved in the LGBT community they likely think supporting trans rights is an extension of supporting gay rights. They miss all the misogyny and homophobia.

This is the central problem. Deliberately and very cleverly created by the trans lobby, linking themselves to established LGB organisations for a free ride.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 13/02/2022 19:08

The OP’s ex-colleague is behaving badly, and the firm’s HR dept should (but is unlikely to) take action. A real injustice to the other staff.

But the child’s case is truly frightening. A 13-year-old in such obvious distress should be getting proper help. Not collusion in a harmful fantasy.

Hoardasurass · 13/02/2022 23:00

@ShinyShingles59 I'm afraid that I have to strongly disagree with you as I know several asd children (through my DSs asd group) who are being actively pushed down this path and were being told that it would cure there asd, which is absolutely false as there is no cure for asd.
Fortunately when I pointed out what the gendered intelligence speaker was pushing to the group leader and the ramifications to the group all further talks were cancelled but by then the damage was done for some of these kids who are now unfortunately mixed up with mermaids

Musomama1 · 14/02/2022 20:44

We had a man who would come into our shop dressed like a man, go into our one changing room then change into women's clothing that he had bought with him and then announce himself to the shop - surprise!
He was obviously an exhibitionist and had some mental health issues, most people just ignored.
I see some parallels here with your former colleague.

I hate to put it this way, but there will be a fair amount of (let's put it nicely) 'eccentric' people attracted to this lifestyle who will make women uncomfortable.
We all kind of knew this a few years ago. What's changed?

Fungirls · 14/02/2022 23:32

WRT your colleague, I have previously worked with Trans colleagues and in my experience they would never behave like your colleague. They would be circumspect and discrete.

This is one of two things, they assume the female stereotypes on TV etc. are true and they are clumsily trying to be one of the girls or they are knowingly doing this to make you feel uncomfortable. Either way as a pp stated this is inappropriate behaviour in a workplace. The trouble is these days everyone is to scared to say anything, even though this is inappropriate, because of the transphobic/TERF accusations.

The solution is a dignity at work policy which sets out what is and isn’t appropriate in the workplace. In that situation HR or their line manager would have a quiet word pointing out that these types of conversations are not appropriate in the workplace.

Enough4me · 14/02/2022 23:53

Your post highlights so well how the untouchables can forge ahead of paralysed institutions. However, the medicated and butchered young people caught up in this ideology will increase in numbers, will wake to reality and will be in a position to sue in the future. Plus women abused in hospitals and prisons will increase and their voice will grow and again court cases develop.

Money talks. Paralysed institutions will have to react when they bear financial penalties, even if they ignore the issues along the way.

RVN123 · 15/02/2022 02:01

A 40 year old man is asking for sleepovers with his adult female colleagues? Asking about their sex lives? Following females into the toilet? And talking about tampons?

Yes, I think that person probably has a word that we are not allowed to say on Mumsnet. It involves being fascinated by females and female bodily processes.

It's also harassment - report them every single time.
They are using you and your female colleagues as a prop in their sexual game. Don't allow yourself to be part of it.

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