What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

This is also why the GRA needs repealing so that we can gate-keep things like rape crisis centres and prisons. What is on your birth certificate is final and that decides whether you access or not.

It's reeeeeeally not complicated.

But I don’t understaaaaaaaand

You are increasingly looking like a prize plum @Wombat2WombatCombat

And for that reason I am out

OP
...people who just happen to look ‘male’ even when they are female and vice versa, and of course transgender people (regardless of whether we agree with them, we need to factor in their existence) means that as far as I’m aware, observation is no longer a reliable way of distinguishing, [sex differences in humans]

Gender ideology myth number 7
"You can never tell"

Op appears to think no one can tell the difference between a transwoman and a woman....
Therefore we can't rely on observation alone to tell the difference between the sexes, ever!
Super.

Ah I love how the "butch lesbians being accused of being a man in the ladies loo" has come up!

It's still not complicated.

If you're a man who needs a urinal use the men's.

If you're a masculine looking woman, use the ladies because urinals are too tall to use without splashing your legs.

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

But I don’t understaaaaaaaand

You are increasingly looking like a prize plum @Wombat2WombatCombat

And for that reason I am out

I don't think many of us are posting for OPs benefit. We can see them. But there are loads of lurkers we can't see and they are the people we post for.

@Wombat2WombatCombat *
So if one person accuses someone in a female toilet as being male, and they say they are female, what criteria do we use to tell who is right? Sorry if I seem like I’m being obtuse, it’s just a lot of stuff has been said which I don’t fully understand*

This happened to me once(!) I was about eight (so about 30 years ago), and a four to five year girl old accused me of being a boy and in the wrong loo quite vociferously. I argued with her for a bit and then went on my way to the loo, but I did think in my head "do you want me to show you?" (clarify: I wasn't planning to. I was exasperated.)

These days there is no "showing you" to do, if you believe TWAW.

@MordenLarch

A woman is an adult human female whose body is designed to produce large immobile gametes, as opposed to men who are designed to produce small mobile gametes - this is true whether or not those biological functions work.

“Immobile gamete” But the gamete, the egg, isn’t technically immobile. It goes from ovary, down Fallopian tube and to uterus all on its very own. You’d have been better off calling one gamete with a tail and one without....

Ah I love how the "butch lesbians being accused of being a man in the ladies loo" has come up!

I only brought it up because it's an example of how easy it is to tell as soon as you give someone more than a cursory glance and certainly as soon as you talk to someone.

We know! However much we are told we can't tell, we always can.

I just don't understand this 'policing' thing.

What is likely to happen?

'Er...I'm not sure you should be in here. This is the ladies'

'I'm a woman' (with massive hands and an Adam's apple)

What do they think will happen next? That there will be an argument about it? That someone will have to provide ultimate proof? Of course not.

If it even got as far as someone getting security, there still would be no need to prove anything. All that happens is that the trangressor is now aware that they've been clocked and that it's not ok.

If it really is a woman, chances are it would be obvious and no one is going to call security or take it further unless they are pretty sure it's a male. This has never been a widespread problem before, so it's unlikely to start being one now.

‘Tis soooo haaaarrddf how can we teeellll something something butch lesbians’

Im shocked, shocked I tell you that this turned out to be a fishing expedition

I have a six-foot-tall lesbian friend who has a short back and sides and is sometimes mistaken for a man in women's loos. But the moment she makes eye contact with a concerned woman and smiles and says actually, she's a woman, the concerned woman knows. Because everything about her, and particularly her understanding of why women are justifiably alarmed by the presence of a man in women-only space, is female.

Exactly @lifeissweet

@MordenLarch @EmpressCixi Isn't this the difference between mobility and motility? Sperm are motile and ova are mobile. This is a definition I do remember from A-level biology ("You have a mobile phone, not a motile phone.") I don't think the egg moves on its very own, I think it is moved by the tissues around it. It wouldn't move in a petri dish.

We are quite a long way from @Wombat2WombatCombat's original question by now though.

Sorry if I seem like I’m being obtuse

You don't seem like you're being obtuse. You seem like you're pretending to be obtuse. Performative obtusity is a feature of conversations with people who are adherent of a particular pseudo-religious ideology.

One of the people pictured is male and one is female. Most people will be able to see which is which. Babies can tell women from men. Dogs can tell women from men. However, a certain type of person living in a certain cultural epoch claims not to be able to do it. Almost always white, hyper privileged people living in western societies. Utter bourgeois piffle.

“Immobile gamete”
But the gamete, the egg, isn’t technically immobile. It goes from ovary, down Fallopian tube and to uterus all on its very own. You’d have been better off calling one gamete with a tail and one without....

No. "Immobile" in this context means "not possessing a cellular mechanism for self-generated movement". Which is a correct description of the ovum.

The movement of the egg into and along the Fallopian tube is generated by the movement of finger-like projections on the surface of the cells at the entrance to the tube and along the walls of the tube, as well as contraction of smooth muscle within the tube walls.

Stop with the whole 'I'm just so confused' bullshit op.

I completely agree that we shouldn’t need to police such spaces. However, I though the reason these while debates were starting was because people who were born with penises were entering (or wanting to enter) women’s single sex spaces

Men are born with a penis. Men. They do not belong in female only spaces. It's that fucking simple.

Women do not need to pander to male demands for validation of an identity, or go along with the magical belief that they suddenly become a woman based on fuck all but their feelings.

Sorry @Lovelyricepudding I misread your post!

I'm not sure what OP has misread/misunderstood, but there must be a reason that this wasn't an issue in past history of mankind and now some people talk of confusion between sexes.

Previously we all knew a man sneaking into womens' facilities was a dodgy man. No ifs or buts.

As I see a number of obfuscatory-nit-picking-false-pedantry-look-at-these-squirrels-types have eagerly clutched upon, I'll just clarify for anybody who is genuinely seeking knowledge: the gametes are motile or immotile and ova are definitely immotile.

I would also point out the obviousness of these obfuscatory-nit-picking-false-pedantry-look-at-these-squirrels-types as they have deliberately ignored the additional "large" or "small" part of the definition of sexed gametes.

Finally, I'd point out to any lurkers that none of these obfuscatory-nit-picking-false-pedantry-look-at-these-squirrels-types would actually be confused by the "mobility" of ova, when it comes to choosing which emergence from the cloaca of a Gallus gallus domesticus they wish to have with their fried breakfast.

‘Tis soooo haaaarrddf how can we teeellll something something butch lesbians’

Or female athletes, because as Cartimandua over in the Times comments repeats relentlessly, female athletes are indistinguishable from men and will have their genitals checked in future if we evil women get out way.

Is this the bingo session it seemed destined to be then?

@Helleofabore

Is this the bingo session it seemed destined to be then?

Absolutely. But, hopefully, any lurkers will have learned several things - only one of which is the biological definition of sex.

@Tiphaine

Sorry if I seem like I’m being obtuse

You don't seem like you're being obtuse. You seem like you're pretending to be obtuse. Performative obtusity is a feature of conversations with people who are adherent of a particular pseudo-religious ideology.

One of the people pictured is male and one is female. Most people will be able to see which is which. Babies can tell women from men. Dogs can tell women from men. However, a certain type of person living in a certain cultural epoch claims not to be able to do it. Almost always white, hyper privileged people living in western societies. Utter bourgeois piffle.

They're being Transobtuse.

@NecessaryScene

Seems like the right thread to repost this - a classic from all the way back in 2019.

An Open Letter To the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

(Original author on Medium had his account suspended - this is the original URL if you want to look it up in an archive - it had better formatting than the currently-live copy. Although bloomin' Mumsnet messes up the link - remove the asterisks).

Thanks Necessary, that's the article I wanted to quote. Especially this bit about how we can tell which ones are the female bodies:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until the moment we decided we couldn’t figure out what the fuck it even means.

FFS is this still going

A 2 year old could tell you that a chicken egg can't move on it's own but somehow makes it's way out of the chicken backside.

@Pluvia

I have a six-foot-tall lesbian friend who has a short back and sides and is sometimes mistaken for a man in women's loos. But the moment she makes eye contact with a concerned woman and smiles and says actually, she's a woman, the concerned woman knows. Because everything about her, and particularly her understanding of why women are justifiably alarmed by the presence of a man in women-only space, is female.

Yes.

I think that the Lauren Black approach is a wonderful one. Acknowledging that women are concerned and thanking those questioning for looking after other womens interests goes a long way.

The people who keep claiming the hurt and pain of being questioned seem very much determined that this is to be taken as a personal attack. No, I was also asked often if I was a boy when I was a child. It was not an attack, it was usually for a good reason.