What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

[Wombat2WombatCombat]

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

This is the lowest common denominator necessary to be considered female or a woman. Everything else is decoration. After that you can go wild, you can present in any way you like, enjoy and do whatever you want, have whatever sexual preferences, do whatever job, as long as you are making, or once made, or will make, or would have made (in case of developmental disorders) eggs, you are a woman or a girl. It is really that simple.

Bingo

@Wombat2WombatCombat

This is topsy-turvy thinking. If people entering a single-sex space can be confident that only members of one sex will be there, there is no need to police anyone's external appearance. Whether or not someone looks "female enough" ceases to be an issue if you can be certain that everyone present is in fact female.

But how can you get to the point where you are certain that everyone present is female in the first place?

My DD, has from a very, very, very young age been able to spot male from female. Even at distance.

When she was tiny I was often asked "Mummy, why is that man pretending he is a woman?"

Women and girls can tell.

The social and cultural expectations around single sex spaces are being eroded. If we could return to the respect of those spaces we could be confident and comfortable that they were single sex spaces.

@flashpaper

I'm amazed that this has been going on for days and OP is still stubbornly refusing to grasp what they have been told over and over again.

No one has anything to add now because there is nothing else to add. It is not the fault of the women here that OP conveniently "doesn't understand".

The OP understands full well and has always understood. But because they're fighting on the Right Side Of History, typing utter bollocks, one-handed, with a box of tissues on their lap, is their very duty to Righteous Faith.

But I like to think of the OP as actually doing a service to the Reality-Based community, although they probably can't even see it. Anybody who isn't already an adherent of the Faith will have seen the constant lies, misrepresentation, cherry-picking and faux-naivety - and then draw their own conclusions about whether a truly Righteous Side would have to behave like this.

The tissues are for the tears! Obviously. They seem to be upset that the service humans are misbehaving and not performing to specifications.

After that you can go wild, you can present in any way you like, enjoy and do whatever you want, have whatever sexual preferences, do whatever job, as long as you are making, or once made, or will make, or would have made (in case of developmental disorders) eggs, you are a woman or a girl. It is really that simple.

This. The basic fundamental point of life is to reproduce. There are only two gametes, not three or ten. Both are needed to reproduce. People who would never produce gametes at any time in their lives have medical reasons for this..

People have said that repeatedly, but nobody has elaborated on what traits mean someone has large immotile gametes, and at what point do they become small motile gametes

I think you need to revise your basic understanding of evolutionary biology @Wombat2WombatCombat

Mammals are sexually dimorphic - this means that sex is binary; there isn't a 'spectrum' where one can say - as you do above

at what point do they become

However, someone who has medical knowledge maybe able to point you to a scientific understanding of the moment in the conception & gestation of a foetus when sex is genetically established.

According to what I’ve heard, the ability to have a baby with someone is not what defines a male or female, unless we want to discount everyone who is infertile

A car is still a car, even if it doesn't start. It was still supposed to get people from A to B, the fact that it is faulty doesn't mean that it is no longer a car.

OK, FWR - For shits and giggles, how do we define men?

How do we define men as a class so it includes all males, regardless of how they see themselves, dress themselves or fetishise themselves?

I'll start:
Men, as a class, are not nearly as clever as they think they are.

The existence of a trait that defines womanhood independently of someone’s fertility seems to be what the majority of the responses here are implying. The issue is, as far as I can tell, nobody is able to define it any more specifically than ‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

You are consistently confusing sex and gender roles in your questions.

Do some reading.

Funny .. all the “complexities “ of being able to define biological sex”, yet society knows who

To buy babies from- surrogates
Who to pay less
Who does the majority of childcare and house work
Who are killed by domestics violence rates at a one every 3 seconds worldwide.

• whenever it comes to who to oppress and use for labour.. we can easily identify who a woman is!

This is a a nonsense argument OP and you’re talking yourself in circles.

There is nothing unclear about what a woman is or what a man is.

What I would like I for people to be honest about the mental health needs of those engaging in these sort of mental gymnastics and the helpful idiots going along with this nonsense.

Only one response is adequate at this stage.

Repeat after me...

The existence of a trait that defines womanhood independently of someone’s fertility seems to be what the majority of the responses here are implying. The issue is, as far as I can tell, nobody is able to define it any more specifically than ‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

Is this just another common or garden demand that womanhood be defined by something other than female biology?

@NecessaryScene

The issue is, as far as I can tell, nobody is able to define it any more specifically than ‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

And the problem with that is?

"I tried to get people to define 'even', but nobody is able to define it any more specifically than 'number divisible by two'".

This! I love how the OP pretends it is not a proper definition.

I wish I'd seen a thread like this one a few years ago when I started to doubt the TWAW narrative. Thanks @Wombat2WombatCombat

Where are blueberry et al when you need them? We've reached the point where doubters start to peak. Come on and help them along quash the insurrection. Don't be shy.

@NecessaryScene

The issue is, as far as I can tell, nobody is able to define it any more specifically than ‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

And the problem with that is?

"I tried to get people to define 'even', but nobody is able to define it any more specifically than 'number divisible by two'".

I think you have summed it up very well.

Shall we ask OP to define 'nobody', 'issue', 'specifically' and in fact, 'define' to our satisfaction.

In fact, let's do that.

@Wombat2WombatCombat

Please define 'nobody', 'issue', 'specifically' and in fact, 'define' in depth and to our satisfaction. And be assured that if you simply refer to the dictionary, or to google we shall swivel to ask for further clarification of the terms you have used in your definition.

Also, 'wombat'. And when does a wombat cease to be a wombat and not a possum or a kangaroo.

Also, 'combat'. When does combat become combat and what is all its iterations so we can be sure you have covered all combat and not left anything out to be undefined.

@Barbarantia

Where are blueberry et al when you need them? We've reached the point where doubters start to peak. Come on and help them along quash the insurrection. Don't be shy.

I suspect one of them has every recently name changed.

Maybe this Magdalen video will help, it is a run through of a transwoman's reaction to Muscato.

The issue is, as far as I can tell, nobody is able to define it any more specifically than ‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

It doesn't need defining any more specifically though does it? The definition is useful, scientific and proven beyond any person's reasonable doubt to be completely valid. I'm not going to apologise if that definition does not allow men to justify entering female only spaces - which appears to be your actual issue.

@NecessaryScene

The issue is, as far as I can tell, nobody is able to define it any more specifically than ‘reproductive system built to produce immotile gametes’

And the problem with that is?

"I tried to get people to define 'even', but nobody is able to define it any more specifically than 'number divisible by two'".

‘Number divisible by two’ is a definition that carries with it an exact criteria for it being the case, and an objective test to determine whether something qualifies. Without further clarification, ‘built to produce immotile gametes’ does not

‘Number divisible by two’ is a definition that carries with it an exact criteria for it being the case, and an objective test to determine whether something qualifies. Without further clarification, ‘built to produce immotile gametes’ does not

Why do you think it needs further clarification? What is it that you're not understanding about this simple criteria?

‘Number divisible by two’ is a definition that carries with it an exact criteria for it being the case,

Does it? Is zero even? Is pi even? Is minus-two even? Is two-i even? I'm going to need to push you on this. This isn't as straightforward as you're making out.

And how are you defining "objective" and "not"? And what do you mean by "clarification"? Until you can define "clarification", I'm not sure we can help you.

Without further clarification, ‘built to produce immotile gametes’ does not

That's a very subjective opinion.

Please define "clarification"

‘Number divisible by two’ is a definition that carries with it an exact criteria for it being the case, and an objective test to determine whether something qualifies. Without further clarification, ‘built to produce immotile gametes’ does not

you heard it here people! women must pass an objective test that @Wombat2WombatCombat can run to be classified as women.

line up for your tests! if you aren't pregnant, put on extra femaleness (the type that infertile women have and makes sure we know they are women because @Wombat2WombatCombat doesn't want to be insulting just obtuse) . but maybe show some feminity if you are pregnant because biologically you can be pregnant or have had children but not be of the female sex.

Women's single sex space are the prize if you can pass @Wombat2WombatCombat objective test! It's just a game. no safe guarding necessay. This test no other!
The test of having a female body is not objective. mere conjecture.
@Wombat2WombatCombat is creating the REAL test for the REAL objective women. based on OBJECTIVE traits (which are of course present in both male and female primary reproductive systems)