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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

What is the biological definition of a woman (and man)?

999 replies

Wombat2WombatCombat · 09/02/2022 21:50

I understand the argument for single sex spaces, but just for the avoidance of any doubt, does anyone have an exact, biological definition of a woman (or man) that we can hold people to? If we want to enforce the idea of single-sex spaces, we will need an exact criteria to determine who is or isn’t a ‘real’ woman, so I was wondering if anyone could tell me exactly what that is?

OP posts:
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14
anothersmahedmug · 11/02/2022 07:55

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

I've been lurking and trying to figure out what the aim of this thread is from the OPs perspective

I’m pretty sure I can clear that up for you

It involves tissues

What? With so many people laughing at them?
Awiltu · 11/02/2022 07:55

nobody has elaborated on what traits mean someone has large immotile gametes, and at what point do they become small motile gametes

The sets of traits associated with reproductive systems designed to produce large immotile gametes, and the sets of traits associated with reproductive systems designed to produce small motile gametes, have been elaborated multiple times in this thread.

There is no point at which large immotile gametes become small motile gametes because sex is a binary, not a spectrum.

There is no point at which a male-configuration reproductive system becomes a female-configuration reproductive system because sex is a binary, not a spectrum.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2022 07:59

At what point do eggs become sperm? Wild.

NecessaryScene · 11/02/2022 08:00

Yes, but when does a pizza become a woman?

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 11/02/2022 08:00

What? With so many people laughing at them?

For some people that’s the point. Takes all sorts innit

Just be aware that an inadequate like this chap is probably getting more female attention on this thread than he otherwise gets in a year

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:02

People have said that repeatedly, but nobody has elaborated on what traits mean someone has large immotile gametes, and at what point do they become small motile gametes

Readers, at this point there is no point.

If an OP requests explanation to differentiate what is a small gamete, a sperm, a little thing with a tail that is actually motile and is ejected out of a male body, can be easily retrieved and seen under a microscope.

Versus an ova. Which was created in immature form as a foetus and which the body sequentially selects one to mature to the point of release that the body moves into position into the uterus in case of fertilization. And an ova is a spherical shape and completely different in appearance to a sperm. Plus to see one likely requires a procedure to retrieve, not a wank in a cup.

If OP didn’t know this before, they are just going to ignore this now. And will come up with something just as ridiculous next.

Maybe like, how do you tell the difference between an infant and adult? Or how do you tell the difference between a car vs a motorcycle?

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:06

OP I would suggest you get in contact with the teams that develop facial recognition software and ask THEM for their algorithms.

If apps can reliably detect who is male vs female from photos, you will have your algorithm.

OnGoldenPond · 11/02/2022 08:07

@Helleofabore

People have said that repeatedly, but nobody has elaborated on what traits mean someone has large immotile gametes, and at what point do they become small motile gametes

Readers, at this point there is no point.

If an OP requests explanation to differentiate what is a small gamete, a sperm, a little thing with a tail that is actually motile and is ejected out of a male body, can be easily retrieved and seen under a microscope.

Versus an ova. Which was created in immature form as a foetus and which the body sequentially selects one to mature to the point of release that the body moves into position into the uterus in case of fertilization. And an ova is a spherical shape and completely different in appearance to a sperm. Plus to see one likely requires a procedure to retrieve, not a wank in a cup.

If OP didn’t know this before, they are just going to ignore this now. And will come up with something just as ridiculous next.

Maybe like, how do you tell the difference between an infant and adult? Or how do you tell the difference between a car vs a motorcycle?

Or, more to scale here, how do you tell the difference between the island of Manhattan and your back garden.
pinkandpurplepetals · 11/02/2022 08:11

Chromosomes. Anything outside the 'norm' is effectively an anomaly that would have to be dealt with separately. Females are still females they don't disappear because someone else was born an anomaly.

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 08:15

@NecessaryScene

I'm going to paste in Jane Clare Jones' Twitter thread I mentioned above, because it's too good not to.

She was replying to a tweet saying:

So next time a TERF asks you about "biological sex", ask them what they mean: Genetics? Internal organs? External organs? Hormones? Neurology? And why are supposed feminists so focused on reducing people to their genitals and how they reproduce?

We mean 'reproductive function'

Which, oh look, you kind of admitted you understand at the end of your tweet.

And we're not reducing 'people' to their reproductive function. We're saying a person's sex is their reproductive function. Because um, that's what sex means.

It's true you can split the components which go together to make up someone's reproductive function into these different elements.

And it is true that in a very small number of cases not all those components go together.

But this idea that sex is all these different components, rather than sex being the function that all these different components enable is BATS.

And again, it's a product of a flat-headed essentialist idea that something's being is a list of properties... that in order to understand what something is we have to take it apart and identify all the bits and that the bits are what makes it what it is.

That's not how we identify and classify things. We don't walk into a room and think 'oh look, there is a object with four legs and a back it must be a chair.' We see the object we make for one person to sit on. We interact with it as 'the sitting on thing.'

That is, very often, we interact with and categorise objects by what they do. Not by lists of properties. The properties are of course related to what they do. Because Form -> Function. And difference in Form -> Function matter especially when distinguishing one object from another similar object that serves a similar function.

A mug is a vessel for drinking hot liquid. Hence, has a handle, made of stuff that holds hot liquid.

A glass is a vessel for drinking cold liquid. Hence, doesn't need a handle, can be made of stuff that sometimes shatters if you put hot stuff in it.

Things ARE NOT lists of properties. They are things which have evolved, or been made, with a particular arrangement of parts, to do certain things.

SEX IS A FUNCTION.

It's mad to me that people keep insisting on the 'list of properties' idea about how concepts work.

If you look in a dictionary it is really evident that we understand perfectly well that that is very often not how we classify, or not the primary thing we do when classifying.

(Definition screenshots: glass - 2. a drinking container made from glass. / chair - 1. a separate seat for one person, typically with a back and four legs)

As in these definitions, the identification of properties is secondary to the identification of function.

We will notice is 'the sitting thing for one person' has a back or not, and then we divide those into 'chair' and 'stool.'

A glass will usually be made of glass, but sometimes not... and we might then end up saying something which might sound oxymoronic, but actually carries sense perfectly... like 'the plastic glass'... because we understand that 'glass' in this context actually means 'cold liquid drinking thing.'

That is, classifying things relies MASSIVELY on function, and on the fact that concepts are what we use to INTERACT with the world. And it is only when idiot philosophers sit in their 'one person sitting objects' and just stare at stuff without actually doing things with them that they come up with stupid ideas about how concepts work by us breaking things into parts and identifying all the properties.

GAH.

So if I’m understanding correctly, the reason a chair is a chair is because it has the property of its function being for a single person to sit on, and the property of a back - if it did not have the property of having a back, it would be a stool, not a chair? Likewise, a glass can be made of plastic because it doesn’t need to have the property of being made of glass, it only needs to have the property of being a ‘cold liquid drinking thing’?
OP posts:
Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:18

Or, more to scale here, how do you tell the difference between the island of Manhattan and your back garden.

And if my back garden feels to me like the island of Manhattan, when does it become the island of Manhattan. What features does it need to have to become the island of Manhattan. Because, how do we know if the island of Manhattan can move or not, or replicate itself, or be relabeled to suit my need to have my garden be classified as the island of Manhattan.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2022 08:21

OP, before there was any knowledge of chromosomes, were people confused about which type of person to mate with to have a baby?

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 08:21

@Helleofabore

People have said that repeatedly, but nobody has elaborated on what traits mean someone has large immotile gametes, and at what point do they become small motile gametes

Readers, at this point there is no point.

If an OP requests explanation to differentiate what is a small gamete, a sperm, a little thing with a tail that is actually motile and is ejected out of a male body, can be easily retrieved and seen under a microscope.

Versus an ova. Which was created in immature form as a foetus and which the body sequentially selects one to mature to the point of release that the body moves into position into the uterus in case of fertilization. And an ova is a spherical shape and completely different in appearance to a sperm. Plus to see one likely requires a procedure to retrieve, not a wank in a cup.

If OP didn’t know this before, they are just going to ignore this now. And will come up with something just as ridiculous next.

Maybe like, how do you tell the difference between an infant and adult? Or how do you tell the difference between a car vs a motorcycle?

I am aware of the difference between spermatozoa and oocytes. However, the definitions given so far are about the body being designed to produce them, not about the differences themselves. The differences between the two gametes have been defined, but the exact, defining difference between a system designed to produce one vs another has not (and it has been made clear that it is not the ability to produce them but the fact a system is theoretically designed to that is the distinguisher, so fertility is not a necessary measure).
OP posts:
Warmduscher · 11/02/2022 08:23

I want to thank all the women who have answered the OP’s multiple questions with patience and politeness, despite the OP’s deliberate attempts at faux naïveté and obfuscation. I gain more knowledge and insight with every one of these threads.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if men who assert that they are women approached women’s concerns with the same good grace?

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:23

@DrBlackbird

Anyone else getting the impression that the OP’s replies to everyone’s posts reads like they’re being made by an AI chatbot? A trolling AI chatbot? Ingenious.
Nah. If this was a bot, it would surely have been over-detuned. If would have an error message saying that it failed to convince anyone of being realistically engaged from about post 2.

However, it would explain the inability to answer questions outside its task. That would inconveniently show it up as having a purely political focus.

Wombat2WombatCombat · 11/02/2022 08:27

@Ereshkigalangcleg

OP, before there was any knowledge of chromosomes, were people confused about which type of person to mate with to have a baby?
According to what I’ve heard, the ability to have a baby with someone is not what defines a male or female, unless we want to discount everyone who is infertile
OP posts:
Igneococcus · 11/02/2022 08:29

"Designed" really get's my evolutionarist's goat. Sex evolved, it wasn't designed.

Actually, from a perspective of evolution fertility is really all that matters.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2022 08:29

Not my point Confused as you are no doubt aware. Why wouldn't they be confused and think that two penis havers could produce a baby unaided by a vagina haver, OP? Answer the question please.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:30

and it has been made clear that it is not the ability to produce them but the fact a system is theoretically designed to that is the distinguisher, so fertility is not a necessary measure

Yeah yeah! The words you are reading are not registering in your brain.

This has been clarified by numerous posts. I am not the only one that had clarifying disclaimers on the definitions we posted that covered when a body was for reasons of immaturity, of medical condition or through age, or deliberate intervention was not producing gametes.

It is you who has chosen to ignore them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2022 08:30

Actually, from a perspective of evolution fertility is really all that matters.

Exactly.

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:33

I am aware of the difference between spermatozoa and oocytes

Excellent.

Tell us about speggs and spergs OP.

Aren’t they the stages between when a sperm can become an egg?

Linguini · 11/02/2022 08:34

Would anyone like a recipe for banana Weetabix?

Linguini · 11/02/2022 08:34

Or is it not the right time of day?

Helleofabore · 11/02/2022 08:35

There must be an unendless supply of tissues in the world.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/02/2022 08:35

What exactly is it about the "trans woman" population that makes them unable to have become pregnant, like the vast majority of women can, and the absence of which ability in women suggests medical problems? Why is this inability to become pregnant correlated 100% with the "trans woman" population? Quite some predictability.