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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people

83 replies

WarriorN · 07/02/2022 09:47

They're doing a piece on the language of reproduction:

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
OP posts:
LilithOfEden · 07/02/2022 11:59

Was I deleted for using incorrect pronouns? Are discussions in the abstract of a hypothetical person subject to language control?

Datun · 07/02/2022 12:04

@FOJN

The change in language is not and never has been about being inclusive of TM and NB's, it's about separating the word woman from biological functions only performed by female bodies in order to give legitimacy to the question "what is a woman". TM's and female NB's have never had and will never have that much power or influence.
Exactly.

Which is constantly borne by the fact that men's language is not being policed in this way.

And these are the questions that need to be asked.

Since when have women been able to influence language across-the-board in this way, in a heartbeat. Across all media, radio and television, and politics, education, unions, and female organisations. The lot. Overnight.

And how come men's language is being completely ignored.

And it will absolutely be feminists who see this instantly. It's so blatant.

And we need them to point it out.

People who aren't as aware of patriarchal influence might well view this as being a transman issue. But women in the know, won't. And they need to start saying so.

Women need to start calling men prostate havers, penis owners and ejaculators. And see how it clangs with just about everybody.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 12:05

@LilithOfEden

Not sure what I have said that's warranted deletion, MN moderators. If a child with the birth sex female is told/affirmed she is a boy, that all her biological functions are those experienced by males, and is sheltered from any education that might tell her otherwise because it might be triggering, then yes, she might not have the faintest idea she has a cervix.
*@LilithOfEden* is stating fact. 50% of UK women do not know what is a vagina and what is a vulva.

yougov.co.uk/topics/health/articles-reports/2019/03/08/half-brits-dont-know-where-vagina-and-its-not-just

Of course, with the usual clanging irony, the questions from YouGov talked about gender and not sex d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/bxrj4xtd02/YG-Archive-WomensBodiesInternal-070219.pdf and yet were reported as if they were sexed questions. FFS.

Can you reinstate posts? Because what @LilithOfEden said is important, even if unofficial mods find the facts inconvenient.

There are cases of trans men and NB females who believe they could actually change sex. This is going to impact on their health and is a serious issue which I think, deserves discussion.

Abra1d1 · 07/02/2022 12:05

@FrancescaContini

Surely the onus is on the individual to stay abreast - no pun intended whatsoever - of what their healthcare needs may be?? Is it really the responsibility of the NHS to remind people that they still have a cervix etc? Confused
One in 7 adults in England have literacy levels at or below that expected of a nine to 11-year-old. Cervix isn't a word used commonly. You can't see if. You probably don't know it's there a lot of the time. Women need reminding.
SolasAnla · 07/02/2022 12:07

@FrancescaContini

Surely the onus is on the individual to stay abreast - no pun intended whatsoever - of what their healthcare needs may be?? Is it really the responsibility of the NHS to remind people that they still have a cervix etc? Confused
"People" who get elected and are allowed vote on healthcare laws.👀

Once upon a time there was David who lived on an island. He woke up one morning and read the back of the box. "Warning may cause growth of new body parts" 🦖🦖🦖🦖

mobile.twitter.com/LBC/status/1443125834626260993

BaronMunchausen · 07/02/2022 12:08

@FrancescaContini

I did email Woman's Hour pondering the notion that language subtleties might trigger gender dysphoria for a transman but giving birth wouldn't.

And asking if we had any statistics for the number of transmen who have given birth in the UK.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 07/02/2022 12:09

Further to @FrancescaContini's posts - was there not evidence of this submitted to Baroness Nicholson's webinars by a paediatrician who had seen children who's sex had been changed on the medical records and this was concealed by parents? The kid's blood results were examined against the range for the wrong sex and the child was harmed by this. My detail might be fuzzy, but I definitely think that your point is sound, Francesca.

Abra1d1 · 07/02/2022 12:11

@FrancescaContini sorry, see your point was about something rather different!

BaronMunchausen · 07/02/2022 12:15

The new priestly caste in Ireland has ordained that "people with a cervix" be intoned on official sites.

They add 'women' too, so at least it's only men who will be left wondering whether they should go for regular cervical screening.

Though the same site provides a prostate cancer guide for "men". because it's the leading cause of cancer in "men", and over 3,300 "men" are diagnosed with prostate cancer in Ireland each year.

No man will be left wondering if they have a prostate.

FrancescaContini · 07/02/2022 12:22

The researcher on the interview said that the sexed (aka correct biologically) language she used when presenting a paper at a conference was changed when transferred to Twitter to be non-sexed (aka “gender neutral” aka confusing) eg pregnant women became pregnant people etc.

I think that this change happened without her consent.

TheGreatATuin · 07/02/2022 12:23

My 12yo in year 7 is doing reproduction in class. He told me with a massive eye roll because everyone is apparently giggling and being "childish".
Although when I asked what sort of language they were using, there was a bit of foot shuffling and embarrassment on his side Grin (for the curious, it seems the school is giving them facts without the woo).
However, if that's the age that they're being shown the various parts of the reproductive system and half the class are giggling and the other half are staring at their feet in the pure embarrassment of being 12 and having a teacher talk about sex, then it doesn't really surprise me that the girls don't remember that particular bit by 18 if they haven't gone on to do more biology.

OvaHere · 07/02/2022 12:26

I think a lot of it is pushed by pro surrogacy lobbyists too. Much easier to push commercial surrogacy if women are nothing but disconnected body parts.

Plasmodesmata · 07/02/2022 12:35

I've taught year 7 reproduction - it's in science, so it's just the facts, labelling diagrams etc. and they do learn the names for cervix etc. And yes, there is a lot of shuffling of feet and mumbling of body parts.
They are not all able to retain this information for the rest of their life.

ScrollingLeaves · 07/02/2022 12:47

Is it the same brilliant article as this which someone posted on Mumsnet on the thread ‘People with a Prostate’ back in January?

Frontiers | Effective Communication About Pregnancy, Birth, Lactation, Breastfeeding and Newborn Care: The Importance of Sexed Language | Global Women's Health

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgwh.2022.818856/full?fbclid=IwAR1GmMyg9yC58i3SargXSSpsw1NgaVoD6raB8cz40YuEgx9VxFTr5A4m4OQ%E2%80%9C

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/02/2022 13:07

@FFSFFSFFS

I think what is missed is that it’s not actually about transmen’s feelings - it’s about transwomens feelings. Remember that Daniel Radcliffes outraged response to JK was that trans women are women. It’s all about men being upset at the “power” that pregnancy gives to women that they can’t have.
This.

I will never forget this exchange

President of the United States twitter account
Today, I issued a Presidential Memorandum to protect and expand access to reproductive health care. I am fully committed to protecting women’s health here at home and around the world.
www.twitter.com/POTUS/status/1354953657796722693?t=8GuV5HLuAqiSaL4XyJZ06A&s=19

Reply: Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
Datun · 07/02/2022 13:17

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

It does make me wonder whether this type of biology denier would be happy being called a penis owner, ejaculator, testicle possessor, etc.

Would they be comfortable with us having a conversation in general, with them firmly in the prostate haver category?

As in this service/space excludes all prostate havers?

WarriorN · 07/02/2022 13:22

Figured it out - to open the supplementary files you have to click on the red button and download it.

It's a comprehensive collection of examples where sexed language was not used and so meaning was obfuscated. There are cases where sexed language from e.g. a conference presentation was made gender neutral for sharing on social media.

It's FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.

Thanks for working it out.

And yes it's FUCKING OUTRAGEOUS.

OP posts:
InvisibleDragon · 07/02/2022 13:33

This was one of the cases where changing your sex to your gender identity on medical records nearly resulted in tragedy:
www.bbc.com/future/article/20200814-why-our-medical-systems-are-ignoring-transgender-people
In Whitley’s case, the problem was how the severity of kidney disease is assessed. The usual protocol is to calculate a patient’s “estimated glomerular filtration rate” (eGFR), which measures the amount of a certain waste product in their blood and therefore shows how efficient their kidneys are at filtering it out. If the eGFR is below a certain level, it’s an indication that their kidneys are failing and they are eligible for a transplant.

There are several different lower limits for an eGFR, depending on things like a person’s weight, age, gender and race, which are intended to reflect the natural variation in the human body. Based on the female cut-off, he would have been allowed a transplant immediately. But he’s registered as a man on his medical records, and this meant his doctors used the male eGFR level. He wasn’t put on the list until he reached it – a decision that ultimately delayed the surgery by over a year, and very nearly cost him his life.

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/02/2022 13:35

@BaronMunchausen

The new priestly caste in Ireland has ordained that "people with a cervix" be intoned on official sites.

They add 'women' too, so at least it's only men who will be left wondering whether they should go for regular cervical screening.

Though the same site provides a prostate cancer guide for "men". because it's the leading cause of cancer in "men", and over 3,300 "men" are diagnosed with prostate cancer in Ireland each year.

No man will be left wondering if they have a prostate.

Yes, I do wish the point had been made on the programme that there seems to be no problem discussing men's health issues, like prostate cancer.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/02/2022 13:48

@Datun

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services. Thank you for your work!

It does make me wonder whether this type of biology denier would be happy being called a penis owner, ejaculator, testicle possessor, etc.

Would they be comfortable with us having a conversation in general, with them firmly in the prostate haver category?

As in this service/space excludes all prostate havers?

Well, J Yaniv didn't take kindly to it.

Calling trans women "this person with a prostate" is rude and offensive. Not myself, nor@nicespurlingshould take that kind of harassment. Completely disgraceful. #LGBTQ2 #LGBTQ

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/02/2022 14:09

If that tweet surprises you, cast an eye over this one, dated seven days before. "People who bleed" was absolutely fine, apparently!

Woman's hour 7th feb - pregnant people
Datun · 07/02/2022 14:38

PurgatoryOfPotholes

Ah yes, rank hypocrisy running wild, I see.

Snugglepumpkin · 07/02/2022 15:12

Years ago I was one of a team of moderators who used to have to check a massive digital art gallery which permitted naked images as long as they didn't depict minors or abuse.

The amount of young boys who posted pictures of naked women with oversized lips & boobs who believed that women have their vulva on the front of their body not too far below the belly button was shocking.
I think they worked out the placement by guessing where the end of their erections would be & assuming biology revolved around that.
They were creating their 'art' with 3d models who are sold without genitals, then adding them on themselves where they thought they go.

However little you think the general population know about basic biology, it's less than that.

Not really surprising they don't know about the bits inside where you can't see them.

TheWeeDonkey · 07/02/2022 15:20

Women's Bodies as Currency w/ Dr. Suzanne Vierling - www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4474544-Womens-Bodies-as-Currency-w-Dr-Suzanne-Vierling

I created this thread last night, I think this YouTube conversation really hits the nail on the head regarding the language used and the motivation behind it

Bosky · 08/02/2022 05:40

@InvisibleDragon

This was one of the cases where changing your sex to your gender identity on medical records nearly resulted in tragedy: www.bbc.com/future/article/20200814-why-our-medical-systems-are-ignoring-transgender-people In Whitley’s case, the problem was how the severity of kidney disease is assessed. The usual protocol is to calculate a patient’s “estimated glomerular filtration rate” (eGFR), which measures the amount of a certain waste product in their blood and therefore shows how efficient their kidneys are at filtering it out. If the eGFR is below a certain level, it’s an indication that their kidneys are failing and they are eligible for a transplant.

There are several different lower limits for an eGFR, depending on things like a person’s weight, age, gender and race, which are intended to reflect the natural variation in the human body. Based on the female cut-off, he would have been allowed a transplant immediately. But he’s registered as a man on his medical records, and this meant his doctors used the male eGFR level. He wasn’t put on the list until he reached it – a decision that ultimately delayed the surgery by over a year, and very nearly cost him his life.

"Consider this: if you were to look through every single medical record in the UK – all 55 million – you won’t find a single record labelled as belonging to a transgender person."

And whose fault is that, pray?!

"How does the NHS record information about sex and gender identity?"
Fair Play for Women
16th June 2021

Extracts

2014: The stealth introduction of the concept of gender identity, starting with HIV/AIDS data

2016: PERSON GENDER AT REGISTRATION (sex at birth) was dropped from the dataset at the request of the LGBT Foundation and ‘transgender community’. The Requirement Specification documentation suggested this was because they had been told it may not be legal to ask. This was clearly incorrect advice accepted without the necessary due diligence by the NHS.

Extract from Requirement Specification: “gender birth – work with the LGBT Foundation and the transgender community has informed that it is not good practice or possibly even legal to ask for gender at birth therefore we propose to remove this field from the dataset”

2018: a second dataset was updated to include GENDER IDENTITY CODE (SEXUAL HEALTH) and GENDER IDENTITY SAME AT BIRTH. This was the GUMCAD Sexually Transmitted Infection Surveillance System Data Set.

The Change Specification document states the reason for the update was to be more inclusive of trans and non-binary people.

2021: a third dataset has now been earmarked for updating. This time it’s the Mental Health Services Data Set. Changes will come into affect in October 2021.

PERSON STATED GENDER CODE will be replaced with GENDER IDENTITY CODE. This is currently marked in the NHS dictionary as ‘being used for development purposes and has not yet been approved”. Unlike GENDER IDENTITY CODE (SEXUAL HEALTH) it appears that this new category will not be restricted for use in specific medical areas (note that there is no GENDER IDENTITY CODE (MENTAL HEALTH) in the NHS dictionary. The creation of this generic category for gender identity may reflect a future intention to use it more widely across all dataset as and when they each get updated.

What is becoming clear is that over the last 20 years the ability to accurately record data on the material reality of sex has been slowly eroded within the NHS. The concept of gender identity is now taking its place. We have found no evidence that data experts or stakeholder representatives for sex-based rights have been consulted as these changes were introduced. Instead, it is LGBT representatives who have been influencing the decision-making about whether collecting data on sex is necessary or important. Our stakeholder experience with ONS regarding sex in census means it’s likely that no-one was considering or speaking up for the importance of accurate data on sex. The idea that sex should be replaced by gender identity has probably never been challenged within any of the working groups responsible for these changes, and it shows.

fairplayforwomen.com/how-does-the-nhs-record-data-about-sex/

This document demonstrates the determined sleuthing of FPFW and Dr Nic Williams's persistent badgering of statutory organisations to allow representation of the need to record biological sex in medical records to ensure patient safety.

NHS Connecting for Health Clinical Application and Patient Safety Project warned in 2009,

"This document describes the design guidance for the display and input of information about patient ‘Sex’ or ‘Current Gender’ status. It describes the area of focus, provides guidance and recommendations, and explains the rationale behind the guidance and recommendations.

The term ‘Gender’ is now considered too ambiguous to be desirable or safe because different locations and systems use it to mean different things. It is therefore desirable to use the two distinct terms ‘Sex’ and ‘Current Gender’.

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/+/http:/www.isb.nhs.uk/use/baselines/sexdesign.pdf

This advice was over-ridden by advice and incorrect information from the LGBT Foundation and the transgender community.

=========

See also:

Sex, Gender & the NHS part 2: Your Medical Record and your Ladybrain

Anne Harper-Wright
13 Nov 2018

medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-bb86b0c3ebb

========

We can blame Stonewall for a lot of things but the total embuggeration of recording of biological sex in NHS Records is down to ideological interference by the LGBT Foundation based in Manchester:

LGBT FOUNDATION HISTORY

At LGBT Foundation we have a rich and passionate history of grassroots activism and community involvement, with a track record dating back to 1975.

As the needs of LGBT people have changed so have we, responding to an evolving landscape as well as to changes to health and support needs.

LGBT Foundation (and it’s predecessor The Lesbian & Gay Foundation) formed out of the merger of two community groups, both initially serving LGBT people in Manchester.

Manchester Lesbian & Gay Switchboard Services (MLGSS) began life 45 years ago, on 2 January 1975. Following the decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967, six gay men came together in a back bedroom to provide an information and support service for the growing number of men starting to come out. To this day, the Helpline remains a vital part of the Foundation’s work, delivered by both staff and trained volunteers.

In 1994, our current Chief Executive Paul Martin OBE became one of the founder members of Healthy Gay Manchester, having arrived in Manchester in 1989. The charity was formed in response to the HIV epidemic and was dedicated to improving sexual health amongst gay and bi men.

In April 2000 the two charities merged, becoming the the UK’s largest health and community charity for LGBT people, yet retained its community activism origins. In 2015 we became fully trans inclusive and changed our name to LGBT Foundation.

lgbt.foundation/about-us/our-history

Oh look! After messing up NHS records over many years the LGBT Foundation says next on our agenda is Trans Status Monitoring working with NHS Digital! How lovely!

lgbt.foundation/news/sexual-orientation-monitoring-if-were-not-counted-we-dont-count/126

They seem to have received quite a lot of funding from the NHS, not all for giving misleading advice and messing up the recording of sex in NHS Records of course:

lgbt.foundation/about-us/our-impact-accounts

=========

Meanwhile, Fair Play for Women relies entirely on Crowdfunding and personal donations!

"We receive no formal or government funding for the vital work we do. We rely completely on donations made by our supporters."

Same as all the other groups of women campaigning, researching and lobbying to protect women's rights, official recognition of the reality of biological sex and, in this case, patient safety in the NHS

(FFS!!! Angry)