My first time on the pointy end of the trans debate. It's shit

[AnneBoleynsSixthFinger]

I have followed many threads on this board but never contributed.

In general, I don't express my views on trans issues, mainly due to cowardice.

Today, on a classical literature group on FB, a poster shared a message about JFK. Admiring and quite innocuous. Another poster complained that publicity should not be given to an open transphobe. Against my better judgement, I bit. I asked what specific transphobic things JKR had said.

Cue a barrage of insults. I was called a transphobe, a bigot, etc. An especially vitriolic poster (himself a young white 'cis' man) said that nobody wanted the opinion of a white cis woman. When I retorted that this was hardly an original stance of a man towards a woman with an opinion, he went batshit.

Point of this rant: I was terrified. I am still upset at the level of hatred and irrationality. I totally understand why people are so wary of speaking openly on this subject. It was a valuable and horrible lesson.

Remember, online isn't the real world. People say sthings that they wouldn't dare say IRL because the anonymity of the intermet emboldens them. Don't be scared by the ranting of some random male, he's nothing.

It's all just a stick to beat women with.

The new misogyny is the old misogyny but with blue hair.

@Artichokeleaves

Just saw this and it seems on point.

This is lovely. I just sent it to a whatsapp group of excellent women, thank you for the reminder.

Next to The Stanisland Question, the 'JKR Question' has to be the most awkward question a woman can ask.

Something like 'If JKR is a transphobe, can you direct me to anything she has said or written that is transphobic?'

I would have to presume that to justify the avalanche of rape-and-death threats she has received, JKR must surely have written something so prominently transphobic, that Police Scotland would have arrested her and the Procurator Fiscal had prosecuted.

Except...there's no such record. Not even any record of TRA's saying they've complained to the Police about her allegedly transphobic statements.

The problem of course is that no-one, particularly TRA's, can actually identify any such record, ever. Hence the frantic, desperate efforts to deflect; to do anything other than answer the question. To admit that, well, nothing has ever been found.

I reckon The JKR Question should be asked at every opportunity, repeatedly and with enthusiasm. It should in theory be fantastically easy for TRA's to answer, but they just don't seem able to actually fulfil it.

Neon, FB doesn't announce what groups you've joined on your TL. Not even public groups let alone private ones, which all the GC groups have to be. In some groups they don't even use the T word - they say 'trains' instead.

With the JKR question, people repeat lies that they seem to genuinely believe to be the truth. I've been told she "repeatedly misgenders people", as if that was the most heinous crime imaginable. She doesn't, of course but when I ask for specific instances I'm told to do my own homework. There is no reasoning with these people.

and TERF means Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits

Filing this away for future use, thank you

Is there a legal definition of transphobia? If there is I have not seen it.

And just why are the trans people and more so their "supporters" SO aggressive? I'm not a conspiracy theorist bit it is soooo odd that we have had trans people for ages, why suddenly now (especially now where there is so much more to get ones panties in a bunch about) is it the Next Big Thing?

Aggressive misogynistic porn addled males froth at the mouth over this issue. Which says everything you need to know about it.

@JenniferWildlay

Please do not refer to men as 'cis males'. It's insulting to men.

Ok I'm not up to speed on such things, but why is it insulting? Isn't it simply a prefix like trans but with the opposite meaning. So a man is a trans man or a cis man.

And did you mean it's insulting for men only, or is cis woman an insult too?

Ugh things like this make me feel old and out of touch 😭

However I do understand the whole JKR debate and I find the whole trans rhetoric very scary

@RedBonnet the term 'cis' is a Latin prefix which means 'on this side of'. It is used (correctly) to describe chemical bonds in scientific research. In terms of gender, it was co-opted (incorrectly) as a antonym to trans in about 1994. So, it's a nonsense, made up term and delegates women to a subset of their own sex class.

It's also a nonsense, made up term which is being enforced on women against their will. We are told that we must accept the term or be labelled transphobic while simultaneously being told that we must abide by preferred pronouns or be investigated by the Police.

And no, it's not only insulting for women but men too.

So sorry this happened to you, OP. Stunning how intense the discussion becomes, and it feels so damn personal. If there are no mods, the tenor of debate gets volcanic, really nasty.

But the battle is truly joined, and by far the most coherent, well-informed comments come from posters critical of gender ideology on a variety of issues: JK Rowling, girls' and women's sports, the WiSpa incident in LA, for example, stating one's pronouns in signatures at work etc.

Though you feel you’ve stepped into a snake's nest, and feel betrayed by reactions from your comrades, doubtless others in your literature group agree with you. All it takes is one voice to start the ball rolling.

Sending support to you from the US West Coast.

For some reason book clubs - of all places - seem to be infested with these bullying, censorious little fascists. It is very hurtful when you are attacked and vilified for no reason. But lately I just state my case , as civilly as I can manage and then move on. In that way I hope to at least plant a few seeds.

So sorry, OP. Yet another example of how the debate is not "toxic on both sides". I have a Twitter account from which I tweet GC stuff and I've been subjected to a huge amount of vitriol on there. It's just pure misogyny, but it does seem particularly sad when it comes from other women.

The whole TRA movement is just the latest stick to beat women with. It's a collective delusion and I do hope that sanity returns one day. However, the amount of latent misogyny that it's unleashed is frightening.

I would also agree that you should stay in the group if possible as otherwise other women who may agree with you will see you being bullied out as a warning. But I also completely understand that you don't want to be subjected to the abuse either.

Men who despise women hate them saying no.

This but also - some men are looking for a stick to beat women with - so actually enjoy these interactions. Some of them want the fight itself and this is one of the best they’ve ever had, they can add a special kind righteous fury to it, when in the past they’ve always felt secretly inadequate.

Also - the literary world is one of the worst for this right now, especially for the women virtue signalling all over Twitter about it. They’re such good women, the accommodating kind of women

*of self righteous