My first time on the pointy end of the trans debate. It's shit

[AnneBoleynsSixthFinger]

I have followed many threads on this board but never contributed.

In general, I don't express my views on trans issues, mainly due to cowardice.

Today, on a classical literature group on FB, a poster shared a message about JFK. Admiring and quite innocuous. Another poster complained that publicity should not be given to an open transphobe. Against my better judgement, I bit. I asked what specific transphobic things JKR had said.

Cue a barrage of insults. I was called a transphobe, a bigot, etc. An especially vitriolic poster (himself a young white 'cis' man) said that nobody wanted the opinion of a white cis woman. When I retorted that this was hardly an original stance of a man towards a woman with an opinion, he went batshit.

Point of this rant: I was terrified. I am still upset at the level of hatred and irrationality. I totally understand why people are so wary of speaking openly on this subject. It was a valuable and horrible lesson.

Room 101 for all WWOs.

Thank you, Archery. The whole conversation really had a toddler tone. I wss tempted to offer to pick up the young guy's dummy when the thread was pulled.

@youkiddingme Exactly. The bullies are so pious. The watchdogs of the new orthodoxy.

@NewbieSM. Same shit, different century: so true. Misogyny in a new wig.

@IWonderIfIWonderWhy and @MandyRiceDavis: thank you so much for the recommendations.

Misogyny in a new wig.

Nailed it. You’ve done nothing wrong and everything right with what you said.
I hope the rules of your online group do not allow abuse or bullying between members and the abusive misogynist guy leaves. You shouldn’t have to.

It's shocking but I had my eyes opened a bit recently reading some things from detransitioners.

While I've long understood how people who fall down the identity politics hole create these hierarchies, I don't think I ever realized the extent to which some people, mainly it seems younger people, see these as completely rigid and true. One example is someone believing in the most basic way you can imagine that straight people are actually inferior to non-straight people. Trans people actually are better than non-trans homosexual people. Etc.

It's a complete inversion of the kind of white people at the top biological and cultural essentialism you'd associate with the worst thinking of the 19th century, it's actually a kind of weird hierarchical fascism and that is not a word I use very often.

That accounts for the crazy responses, at least to some extent, IMO.

every time I am called a bigot I point them to the dictionary definition and ask them to explain their hypocrisy most of them dont even seem to understand what a bigot it and are totally unselfish-aware.

and TERF means Tired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits.

also cis is a slur do not accept their labeling as you do not identify as such and find it offensive, the term cis gender literally means born on the other side or it could also be interpreted as other race.

un self aware.

Before calling anyone a bigot it should be required that the person tell you what the belief is that you hold that is wrong, in words that you would agree accurately represent the belief.

Did anyone actually answer the question and describe what JKR had said that was transphobic?

I'm so sorry this happened to you. Every time you speak the truth, you shine some more daylight though and that's a massive achievement, thank you.

It's happened to me a few times on Twitter and I've had to have a break, do something nice and then go back a few days/weeks later. As others have said though, it gets easier and I feel much more calm and secure in myself now and stronger in the face of violent opposition and scare tactics.

Sounds quite a rattling experience

I don't know if it helps at all but it's kind of blackly hilarious to hear of a literature discussion group that refuses to read the primary text ie., JKR's essay, that is the subject of impassioned disagreement...

It would be interesting to hear if the thread was pulled by the group admins due to the personal attacks on you or due to your own alleged "transphobia".

There's nothing like getting your retaliation in first - if you haven't been banned or left yet, maybe pm the admins and point out your adherence to the rules of discussion/civility/reference to primary texts or whatever is pertinent to the existing rules. You can be sure the tantrumers will be behind the scenes trying to get a "transphobia" rule added if there isn't already one.

I'm perfectly serious. The use of 'cis' is insulting to both men and women.
If it was being used ironically then that wasn't too clear.

@Kendodd

Did anyone actually answer the question and describe what JKR had said that was transphobic?

Nobody has ever been able to answer this!

I’m so sorry to read that this happened to you. I’ve spoken out occasionally on SM, and received similar treatment. I received particularly vicious private messages from one friend of an acquaintance when I said something perfectly innocuous on FB. IIRC I said that I didn’t think Helen Watts should have lost her leader position in the Girl Guides for saying that she didn’t think transgirls should share shower and tent facilities with Guides on camp.

The vitriol really upset me. It was 3 or 4 years ago now, but the memory of it still stings, and angers me.

Please know that there will have been people reading your comment who agree with you. They just weren’t brave enough at that moment to publicly join in the discussion.

Well done for speaking reason and truth. The man who attacked you is likely someone who has joined this bandwagon because it gives him a ’legitimate’ opportunity to be abusive to women, and to be applauded for it. It’s shameful, and you have done nothing wrong.

@waterlego I think I would have gone public with those private messages.

I probably should have done @HollowTalk. I did let my acquaintance know what her friend had said to me, before unfriending her. She just made excuses about her friend’s poor mental health. 🙄 The acquaintance in question is now a local Labour councillor. Pffff.

To be clear: the Labour Councillor didn’t send the abusive messages, but excused them.

An especially vitriolic poster (himself a young white 'cis' man) said that nobody wanted the opinion of a white cis woman.

He spoke the truth, no one pushing this agenda cares about biological women. He could have added that biological men never have. As you said, not original: and the very definition of sexism. At least it was only name calling and online. This is how men always maintain power over women - by threat of violence. To be perfectly honest you’re quite lucky if you haven’t seen that before + .

I'm on a book group too, and this happens ALL the time. Someone posts about JK (or Harry Potter, or one of her other books), then the majority of people discuss the actual topic .. but there's ALWAYS one who has to bring this into it, saying they won't support her because of her views on trans people.

I respond, like you, asking for a direct quote that show she's prejudiced. They will continue to argue with me, but cannot ever provide a quote - because there isn't one.

JK has only ever commented from the stance of keeping women safe, and allowing them to retain their own identities. I personally think that is incredibly important. I am a woman, I would like to be referred to as such.

“Waitwhat23

Men who despise women hate them saying no. Gender ideology has given those men a platform to state their anti women views quite openly.

It's utterly horrible but you'll undoubtedly find there are many of the group who agree with you but have been frightened into silence by this type of behaviour. You have been used by this man as a warning to others to keep silent.

I agree with a pp about not leaving the group. Step back and make sure that you are not identifiable.“

Yes, it was a man’s warning to be silent or I’ll kill you tactic. Blue Beard.

Did no one defend you?

You were brave and true, well done.

Anne

My eyes were opened years back when a TQ+ person was suddenly displeased and they and their allies produced a truly shocking, extreme and dramatic attack on me personally, out of all proportion, with language and anger and a viciousness to language that was shocking. It was as if all the time and things I'd done with them and for them didn't enter their heads. My crime had been requiring them to follow the rules of the group I ran like everyone else did, rather than permitting them exemption to break them as they wanted.

Sadly when I began to look around, including reading here, I discovered this is a very common experience.

Read around on the relationships board: there is a good reason why the very wise women there who give their time to advise and support women caught up in awful relationships say that there are some behaviours people will show you that the only thing you can do is NC, LTB and develop healthy boundaries.

It's rubbish OP, that's why I don't express any opinions on FB.

I'm interested in the FB groups though, but will my feed announce that that "Neon has joined a GC group"? I wouldn't want that to be seen. Cowardice on my part, sorry.

Just saw this and it seems on point.