I don’t fit in anymore

[Slowwormwiggle]

Everyday I feel I have less in common with my female peers. I am in my mid 40s I have always worked in the charity sector. I care about social justice and volunteer in my community. I am no saint but a sense of duty was drummed into me at an early age due to a religious upbringing. I am no longer religious but believe in being a good neighbour and trying to help others.

I have many wonderful and kind friends. I would say we all consider ourselves feminists and care a lot about women’s rights. However I am finding their version of feminism so hard to understand. They are obsessed with supporting issues like young people identifying as non binary or trans. I have two young daughters and am horrified by the social contagion that could influence my daughters to think there was something wrong with their bodies.

At the same time they are outraged by any violence against women (rightly so) but they see no safeguarding risks with the compromises girls are expected to take to accommodate trans girls. I don’t understanding why they can’t see the link? Why is suddenly ok for a girl to see a penis in the changing room?

I have also worked for a long time with women from traditional religious backgrounds. I know they feel more and more pushed out by the way these issues are developing. The irony is my friends would be horrified if these women faced racism however they don’t see how the issues around trans women make life even harder for these women. These women will just shrink from public life even more if they are under pressure to compromise their beliefs.

I am starting to think that a lot of the activist issues are really just luxury views held my women that are not affected by them. My friends are women with secure work and homes . There is very little they have to fight for.

We are all left leaning but there is so much they see as important that I don’t. I want to stop domestic violence and poverty, not obsess about trans rights.

I am a total coward. When we talk about this stuff I say nothing or just try and change the subject. It make me feel lonely and wonder if I am the misguided bigot?? They would definitely think I am awful for questioning any of these issues.

I have several friends who I’ve talked to about this - mainly separate friends rather than a friendship group - and they have all (six So far I think) either agreed with me, or listened and accepted it’s what I think though they hadn’t really thought about it, and we’ve been able to discuss it openly. However I have only said what I really think to a select few who I could anticipate would probably be like that. They are all mums, mainly on the older side - 40s/50s.

But what makes me sadder is that I know a lot of arty and academic people in publishing, art and music fields who are much more like the ones you describe Op, have swallowed the full ideology. And as a PP said, it’s not really about caring about people, it’s about showing off how woke you are and jostling to be the most virtuous. They spout the stuff about trans murders and suicide rates etc that I know to be untrue and insist that Tw not only are women but are the saddest, most persecuted women ever and should have anything they want. Yet as you say, these people consider themselves feminists, anti-racists, anti-homophobic and socialists, without stopping to think what their ideology means for whole swathes of women they never think about.

I currently couldn’t work or do creative hobbies with these people unless I put on a big act, which is near impossible for me. I would happily discuss and debate but they wouldn’t, I’d just be ostracised. Lucky for me I’m self-employed and don’t have to deal with it - I really feel for people who have to handle this stuff at work or are alone among their friends. But I do think it will pass. Truth has a way of coming out - eventually and we will look back on this madness in a few years.

Sorry that you struggling with this, OP. I think many of us here have been in a similar situation of having to reassess our social circles and assumptions and beliefs about the people around us.

I also left a high control religion, but in recent years it feels like I'm surrounded by similar people again - unwillingness to question or take on board criticisms and other perspectives; eagerness to denounce anyone as heretics or apostates for questioning the dogma, even mildly; blind faith and allegiance; superstitious / magical / unscientific beliefs etc.
It's been really bizarre and disconcerting.

I've slowly withdrawn from various social circles. I keep a low profile at work. I focus on finding like-minded women for support and also look for people who are generally nice and aren't into the whole SJW/identity politics stuff - they are more likely to be open-minded, tolerant, accepting of differences of views.

OP your post is one of the wisest I’ve ever read on MN. Thank you for posting, it resonates, a lot.

Feel exactly the same and similar demographic to you….. not sure what will happen and shake my head at what I perceive as the overt sexualisation of children…. Remind me why it’s a great idea for young children to be encouraged to identify as anything other than a young person?

YANBU and the majority of people feel like you. I stop paying attention and went cold turkey with some friendships. I think this will pass as every day they make more mistakes by being so inflexible in their views.

I completely understand you sister, I'm in the charity sector too. There's seems to be quite a few radfems in this sector, perhaps we could link up on Twitter or Facebook?

I noticed NCVO (the National Council of Voluntary Organisations) have released a new publication in terms of future strategy for the sector, and one of the things in it they mention is the culture wars and how the role of charities should be to seek consensus. I strongly disagree with this, I'm not sure it's ever possible to get consensus that just seems like a pipe dream, what charities should be doing in my opinion is looking at how they can support people to communicate different experiences and views without the expectation that we're all going to agree on the same things, because the implication of "reach consensus" is "agree with us". Expecting everyone to agree just seems like a form of immature student politics.

Completely agree. There's a strong tendency among people who think of themselves as 'progressive' to believe that they are the only ones who are right and could be right. See, for example, things like the SNP government's recent consultation on GRA reform, which Sturgeon said would 'convince' people of the correctness of the government's position. There was absolutely no room for her even imagining that perhaps the gov position was untenable, or that a 'consultation' actually means listening to people and considering their views.

@Arabella94

I completely understand you sister, I'm in the charity sector too. There's seems to be quite a few radfems in this sector, perhaps we could link up on Twitter or Facebook?

Mumsnet users and feminists are on the whole understandably cautious about how they link up and with whom they share details. For obvious reasons.

Thanks @NonnyMouse1337 I think coming from a controlling religion makes you someone who is more likely to question everything. My husband says I am a contrarian but I am determined never to have my views controlled again.

Tbh work is not so bad. We have the pronoun crap but it’s not enforced. I am often dealing with people in dire situations. Thankfully this means the focus is on basic needs rather than identity politics. A lot of my colleagues are nominally religious Christians or Muslims. They hold what would be seen as conservative or old fashioned views by many but I find them so much less judgemental. For example I have a Muslim friend who has told me she would struggle if one of her children was gay. I know that her attitude towards homosexuality isn’t ok. However for some reason I find her less judgmental than my liberal friends. I think it’s the fact that she is able to converse about difference in beliefs without showing hatred for others with a different view? I have never heard her say anything nasty about gay people just that it’s not ok in her religion. I am used to being around people of different views who can still get on despite this. I am sure that used to be normal!!!????

It’s my friends outside work I struggle with. In conversations I am shrinking because I don’t want to get involved in slagging off JK Rowling. We met through our children but soon they will be going to different schools. This might mean the friendship comes to an end? They seem to only like people in the same bubble.

@VelvetChairGirl yes they use the only internet but probably only look at things that reflect their views. I have come off all social media because I can’t cope with all the endless cringey virtual signalling posts!

However for some reason I find her less judgmental than my liberal friends. I think it’s the fact that she is able to converse about difference in beliefs without showing hatred for others with a different view?
I have a long-standing friend who is a devout evangelical Christian. She once said to me, as we slogged along taking our numerous DC to school, that C.S. Lewis had made the point that the important bit about friendships wasn't that you had the same answers, but that you asked the same questions. That must have been 10 or 15 years ago, but its really stuck.

Also, OP, your comments about 'luxury' made me think that you might enjoy this podcast, by Bari Weiss:
podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-luxury-beliefs-hurt-the-rest-of-us/id1570872415?i=1000540733255

You’re not alone, OP. I’ve noticed that a very senior female colleague has started putting pronouns after her name and I think a great deal less of her now: Jenny, she/her.
No shit, Shylock.
The cognitive dissonance is astounding.

It’s a really tough road. My friends have been either full on chanting the mantras or slightly panicked‘don’t upset anybody’.

I’ve learned to question without passion (anger in my case). although my teeth may have been worn down.

On the religious thing, I was brought up catholic, I am now a very committed atheist. In the last few years I’ve made friends with a catholic archbishop. We have debates but respectfully & humorously.

If people are truly looking for answers they can do so like adults.

Just wanted to show some solidarity because your story sounds so like mine, except it's friends vs co-workers. Also have 2 daughters and yes, it's a social contagion.

You're not alone.

Not charity sector but similar caring woke sector.

I keep myself quiet and no one would know my true beliefs because I would face serious ramifications. I find this utterly chilling.

There's a real element with people like this where they see the people they want to help as a kind of an abstraction. And by help, they mean good things like help them get along materially, but also, make them more like themselves, good liberal secular westerners, just with more exotic food.

They don't really respect them as people, intellectually. And maybe some of the performative stuff is an effort to hide that from themselves.

If you went back 100 years you'd see similar personalities doing good works would be missing seeing people for themselves as well.

I think it's because most feminists (aside from mnetter feminists and a few people on twitter 🙄) believe there is room to support women, trans people, non binary people, disabled people, black people and anyone else in need of support. Most feminists do not think that supporting trans women takes away from women but rather it unites us together. If you recall in the 70's black women were ostracised from supporting womens rights for fear they would damage the fight. We now look on that behaviour in disgust. I predict in 30/40 years time we will do the same to women who do not support trans women for fear it will take away from them. It's good that your daughters look beyond what's taught in their family and will hopefully be more inclusive for it.

Black people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, women, and many more groups of people are treated as second class people in society with white middle class men as always at the top of the hierarchy. Imagine if we all stood together how strong we would be. But instead you prefer to be an insular group that fights other disadvantaged groups. You think you are standing up for yourselves but actually your just feeding into the hands of the men who have the power. Like puppets on a string.

I think your thread title is actually spot on. It’s about ‘fitting in’

I don’t doubt there are genuine transgender people who need help and support.
However I firmly believe at the moment it’s ‘popular’ and ‘cool’. In the 90s every girl was bi because it was cool. Now with the internet everyone is trying so hard to stand out and be different and be part of whatever is popular it’s really sad and exacerbates the issues by influencing children to copy them (be that trans/lgbt/surgery/whatever)

@supporteveryone

I think it's because most feminists (aside from mnetter feminists and a few people on twitter 🙄) believe there is room to support women, trans people, non binary people, disabled people, black people and anyone else in need of support. Most feminists do not think that supporting trans women takes away from women but rather it unites us together. If you recall in the 70's black women were ostracised from supporting womens rights for fear they would damage the fight. We now look on that behaviour in disgust. I predict in 30/40 years time we will do the same to women who do not support trans women for fear it will take away from them. It's good that your daughters look beyond what's taught in their family and will hopefully be more inclusive for it.

Black people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, women, and many more groups of people are treated as second class people in society with white middle class men as always at the top of the hierarchy. Imagine if we all stood together how strong we would be. But instead you prefer to be an insular group that fights other disadvantaged groups. You think you are standing up for yourselves but actually your just feeding into the hands of the men who have the power. Like puppets on a string.

It always leaves a bad taste in my mouth when someone equates black, disabled or gay women with transwomen.

The word “woman” includes to all of those categories. We are united and inclusive of all females. I shudder to think of anyone reading the word woman and thinking it only applies to white, straight and able bodied people.

Black people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, women, and many more groups of people are treated as second class people in society with white middle class men as always at the top of the hierarchy.

Yes this is massively disingenuous. These aren't all separate groups in the first place. Gay and disabled people can be white middle class men, and back and disabled people can be women. However males are not females, just as white people are not black people, and the non-disabled are not the disabled and adults are not children.

The problem with trans ideology is that it says we have to believe that males are females (but curiously not the other examples of mutually exclusive things) for the purposes of sex categories in things like toilets, changing rooms, sports, prisons and hospitals. Those categories and separations exist for a reason - that without them women are disadvantaged, put in danger and/or put in fear.

That means women suffer, while men don't from the reverse situation - in fact in the reverse situation, it's still the female who is in danger.

So if you don't think men should be top of the tree, why support an ideology that isn't supported by any evidence that shits on women and gives men an advantage - especially the most dangerous men?

And why aren't you pushing similar beliefs that black people's organisations and awards and groups, disabled people's and children's spaces, sports etc, should be open to anyone who identifies into them? Otherwise your position makes no sense,

See what SophoclesTheFox wrote about changing rooms in the thread about Lia Thomas the swimmer. SophoclesTheFox has explained the nonsensical madness brilliantly.

@supporteveryone

I think it's because most feminists (aside from mnetter feminists and a few people on twitter 🙄) believe there is room to support women, trans people, non binary people, disabled people, black people and anyone else in need of support. Most feminists do not think that supporting trans women takes away from women but rather it unites us together. If you recall in the 70's black women were ostracised from supporting womens rights for fear they would damage the fight. We now look on that behaviour in disgust. I predict in 30/40 years time we will do the same to women who do not support trans women for fear it will take away from them. It's good that your daughters look beyond what's taught in their family and will hopefully be more inclusive for it.

Black people, gay people, trans people, disabled people, women, and many more groups of people are treated as second class people in society with white middle class men as always at the top of the hierarchy. Imagine if we all stood together how strong we would be. But instead you prefer to be an insular group that fights other disadvantaged groups. You think you are standing up for yourselves but actually your just feeding into the hands of the men who have the power. Like puppets on a string.

and anyone else in need of support

Wow, this is some feminism movement. We have space to support everyone who needs it! Everyone?

Really?

Do you support MAPs, supporteveryone? Do you support rapists? Wife beaters? MRAs? Punters?

@supporteveryone 22:25
How is allowing men identifying as women into women’s changing rooms, women’s sports, women’s refuges, supporting black women who have religious views that mean this proximity is wrong? Or supporting vulnerable women against whom there may have been many offences committed by men? Or women who have spent their lives at a sport only to be beaten in a competition by a man who formerly was in the lower rankings among men?

Where are the feminists you speak of campaigning for Disabled Day pride flags, zebra crossings, ramps? Jewish pride day crossings? Muslim day parades? Blind person’s story time at the library for children instead of a transvestite story time? Where are the badges to show people’s religion or some other identity important to them instead of their ‘pronouns’?

And what are you doing here hinting that women who are concerned by the erosion of women and girls’ rights, safety, dignity and health are racist, ableist etc? I think that in this context it is misappropriating other people’s needs and causes.

And as for the white middle class man you say is at the top of the hierarchy, why is it
that you find him magically transformed - and worthy to be accepted into women and girls’ spaces - as soon as he puts on women’s clothes, or indeed just because says he is a woman?

@EdithStourton yes I listened to that, it really resonated with me. The part where he spoke about people espousing liberal views but choosing traditional lives for themselves is so true. The wokest people I know are married with 2 kids , home owners, university educated and doing jobs they like. They don’t really need to worry a lot about their rights being infringed.

The trans issue does worry me but what drives me crazier is the hypocrisy of my friends views. They only like it when the narrative fits what they like. It’s like you say @SantaClawsServiette they want to help people to become like them . They don’t understand the messiness of helping people and accepting them for who they are. This need for purity is so weird.

Thanks everyone. It’s so nice to chat about this with people. Helps me remember I’m not alone in these thoughts. I also think I need to worry less about what my friends think. If the friendship drifts it doesn’t matter so much maybe.

@Slowwormwiggle

Thanks everyone. It’s so nice to chat about this with people. Helps me remember I’m not alone in these thoughts. I also think I need to worry less about what my friends think. If the friendship drifts it doesn’t matter so much maybe.

Yeah people and friendships evolve over time. You might find that the friends and colleagues you've known over the years don't really match up with your views anymore. They are probably still nice company and a fairly superficial relationship with them can be enjoyable. But it's probably time to look for new friends. This isn't specifically for gender related issues - people grow apart for all kinds of reasons.