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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FPFW Court Case

80 replies

ButYouGottaHaveASkillJeff · 02/02/2022 11:11

Is anyone live following the Judicial Review brought by Fair Play for Women regarding the recording of sex in the 2022 Scottish Consensus?

I'm assuming it's allowed to be discussed as FPFW have been allowed to live tweet it.

OP posts:
bishophaha · 02/02/2022 19:00

Oh i totally missed that this was today! Quite glad I wasn't following along in real time.
Do we know when there might be a decision?

DomesticatedZombie · 02/02/2022 19:02

'another day', bishop. I mean, Your Grace.

Linguini · 03/02/2022 08:31

So the judge now needs to decide between these two arguments:

Pre-existing legislation and case law surrounding the issue meant that there were two lawful courses of action to be taken when answering questions on sex. The first is for people to answer based upon what is recorded on their birth certificate, he said. The second would be for people to answer based upon what is recorded on their gender recognition certificate
Those are the two legal possibilities, there is no other

And this...

Holyrood plans to let people self-identify in this year’s census should go ahead as there is no universal meaning for the terms “sex” or “gender”

Good grief. We're praying sanity prevails.

Mumfun · 03/02/2022 08:43

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

"Lived sex"

I'm willing to go and flop one of my fibroids out in the courtroom if that would help clarify things for the Judge.

Grin Star
PearPickingPorky · 03/02/2022 08:44

I fear the judge wants to be radical because Things Are Different In Scotland.

Mumfun · 03/02/2022 08:46

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

They have more time than for the E&W census which was very last minute. So FPFW could presumably appeal if they lost which I hope they don’t. And the E&W case effectively cost FPFW nothing as the other side had to pay their costs.
They had to pay a good amount as lot of the costs were not covered. But they had some of the money for forward use
FOJN · 03/02/2022 08:52

Has anyone explained how equalities monitoring will work if we don't have baseline statistics on who has a trans identity? How will you know whether trans people have equal representation if we don't know how many people have a gender identity which differs from their sex?

DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 09:31

there is no universal meaning for the terms “sex” or “gender”

Unfortunately in legal terms in Scotland this is probably true.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 09:31

And it's the whole of the fucking problem.

Artichokeleaves · 03/02/2022 09:37

If sex and gender have no universal meaning, then the TQ+ lobby have successfully reduced the word 'woman' to nothing more than a selective flavour option, no different to 'frost gender' or 'gemini'. And have thereby successfully vanished half the human race out of law or recognition.

Thanks for that. Very kind. Very inclusive.

It means there is bugger all point in collecting any data on it at all, because it renders the data meaningless for any purpose.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 09:50

Yep. If anyone can answer the question just as they feel like it, with no requirement to be accurate or reflect any meaningful definition, the question itself is pointless.

Manderleyagain · 03/02/2022 09:53

The census goes live on 1st March, and paper packs must be being prepared now, so although there is more time than there was in England & Wale its still pretty tight. Hopefully the judge will realise that means he or she will have to give a judgement next week.

This is the timeline from the website:

February 2022
Census packs issued to communal establishments.
The packs will provide instruction to communal establishment managers.

March 2022
Census letters issued to all households
All household addresses in Scotland will receive a letter. It will tell them what they need to do to complete the census.

Field Force ready for deployment
A team of enumeration staff will be trained and ready to start the collect phase.

Census goes live
Our online collection instrument will go live from 1 March.

Outputs publishing timescales announced
We will publish a timetable showing when we will publish outputs.

Lovelyricepudding · 03/02/2022 09:59

They say everyone accepts the meaning has changed over time, the original meaning is an anachronism that has been discarded and the law should reflect that. But such a tiny proportion of people will answer according to the new world order that is will not skew data needed to assess things that need to be known based on this anachronistic meaning.

Artichokeleaves · 03/02/2022 10:04

@Lovelyricepudding

They say everyone accepts the meaning has changed over time, the original meaning is an anachronism that has been discarded and the law should reflect that. But such a tiny proportion of people will answer according to the new world order that is will not skew data needed to assess things that need to be known based on this anachronistic meaning.
What consultation has been done to being able to evidence that 'everyone accepts'?

With this massive redefinition in law of half the electorate with massive implications for them and their equality as tax payers? This should involve a referendum.

Lovelyricepudding · 03/02/2022 10:18

Yes. But they are saying simultaneously that no one uses the old definition but it is ok as everyone uses the old definition.

Igneococcus · 03/02/2022 11:33

Aww, Times moderator didn't like my question how Douglas Ross QC knows if he needs a prostate screen or a mammogramm.

EdinburghFeminist · 03/02/2022 11:38

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

"Lived sex"

I'm willing to go and flop one of my fibroids out in the courtroom if that would help clarify things for the Judge.

I can join you and flop out my remaining Fallopian tube.
Lovelyricepudding · 03/02/2022 12:14

Hey Douglas, fancy investing in my egg business? We have been offered some excellent hens, ultra-cheap. Also on offer some young cows for a dairy farm...

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 03/02/2022 12:29

I'm willing to go and flop one of my fibroids out in the courtroom if that would help clarify things for the Judge.

Star
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 03/02/2022 12:36

Ministers plan to allow people to answer the question on what sex they are based on their own personal view of what their gender is.

I’m glad the Times is stating this so clearly. The obvious next point is that, therefore, we can give our own personal view of our age, address and every other item.

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2022 12:39

Yep I can identify as being a different age and where I live. How many are in my household

Because that’s I how I feel 🤷‍♀️

FFS. my country

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2022 12:41

Nick said on telly last night response has to be in next 2 weeks

DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 13:39

@Lovelyricepudding

Yes. But they are saying simultaneously that no one uses the old definition but it is ok as everyone uses the old definition.
Yes, that's one of the massive internal contradictions. We hear things like

'everyone knows if they have a prostate or a cervix'

from organisations when using 'gender neutral' language.

Conveniently ignoring that this is only because we still live with the very well defined knowledge of what 'man' and 'woman' actually mean. This was previously well known, understood and defined. We currently live with an unspeakable, silent knowledge of our sex but must not mention it (thanks, Keir).

Give it a generation of children who are told only the terms for body parts with no reference at all to what sex they pertain to, and that currently unsayable but widely understood fact will vanish.

Nobody is born knowing whether they have a prostate or a cervix. We are raised to know what sex we are, and then use that information to work out which we have.

If the knowledge of sex is vanished, these other issues will become so obscure that navigating healthcare will become far harder. Fewer women will present for smear tests, etc.

We know that the NHS records people by 'gender identity' only, omitting to record 'sex'. So we're already creating massive gaps in data. These will only get worse as the simple and logical understanding of the sexes is corroded, 'queered' and obscured by people who think it's a jolly jape to undermine the status quo, and/or those who have some muddled idea that it's sexist or rude to determine clear, factual information on people's sex.

I think part of all of this nonsense is fuelled by a vague idea that it's progressive to be 'sex blind' - presumably following exactly the same argument as 'I don't see colour'.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/02/2022 14:05

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-60235263