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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lia Thomas - New Trans Athlete Guidance

66 replies

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 02/02/2022 06:38

USA Swimming released its new Athlete Inclusion, Competitive Equity and Eligibility Policy (AICEEP) on Tuesday [1st Feb 2022], which will come into effect immediately.

swimswam.com/usa-swimming-publishes-athlete-transgender-policy/

USA Swimming press release states that:

the development of the elite policy therefore acknowledges a competitive difference in the male and female categories and the disadvantages this presents in elite head-to-head competition. This is supported by statistical data that shows that the top-ranked female in 2021, on average, would be ranked 536th across all short course yards (25 yards) male events in the country and 326th across all long course meters (50 meters) male events in the country, among USA Swimming members. The policy therefore supports the need for competitive equity at the most elite levels of competition.

www.usaswimming.org/news/2022/02/01/usa-swimming-releases-athlete-inclusion-competitive-equity-and-eligibility-policy

Elite athletes will need to show that prior physical development of the athlete as a male does not give the athlete a competitive advantage over female competitors and evidence of 36 months of lowered testosterone (

OP posts:
FannyCann · 03/02/2022 07:19

Liking this comment on The Times piece:

"Ah this is the same Mr Thomas who frequently misplaces his towel revealing the fact he is attracted to women.

So not merely does he thrash women in their own sporting events, but also sexually assaults them in the process.

It’s a great life if you are a bloke."

FannyCann · 03/02/2022 07:20

Let's see if a comment that has survived The Times moderation also survives MN....Wink

Signalbox · 03/02/2022 07:46

Does anyone know at what point an athlete is considered to be at “elite” level? Is it the types of competition they are entering?

BriocheForBreakfast · 03/02/2022 08:15

*Elite athletes will need to show that prior physical development of the athlete as a male does not give the athlete a competitive advantage over female competitors and evidence of 36 months of lowered testosterone (

TheAbbotOfUnreason · 03/02/2022 08:59

@Signalbox

Does anyone know at what point an athlete is considered to be at “elite” level? Is it the types of competition they are entering?
USA Swimming has defined it as:

For purposes of this Policy, “Elite Athletes” shall include any athlete who has achieved a USA Swimming Junior National time standard and desires to participate in any of the following “Elite Events” defined for purposes of this Policy as: any United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee (“USOPC”) Delegation Event and/or Protected Competition as defined in the USOPC Bylaws; Fédération Internationale de Natation (“FINA”) Events; PanPacific Championships; World University Games; USA Swimming Nationals, Junior Nationals, U.S. Open, International Team Trials, U.S. Olympic Team Trials - Swimming; and/or any other competition designated by USA Swimming as an “Elite Event” and any other event which conditions entry on meeting the USA Swimming Junior National Time Standard or faster. For purposes of this Policy, Elite Events shall also include any other competition in which a qualifying time standard is achieved for entry into the other Elite Events described above or to be eligible to set an American or National Age-Group Record at the 13-14 level or above.

OP posts:
NitroNine · 03/02/2022 12:02

The thing is, people don’t magically become elite athletes. You can’t self-ID as one & gain access to their [hopefully soon-to-be single-sex once more] facilities, even if you’re prepared to put in the work.

It’s a [gruelling] process to get there; & if trans girls aren’t excluded at the first sign puberty is kicking in, the supply of elite women is going to evaporate because the elite girls won’t hold out for the Maybe of a safe space later. What of the sports that select their elite athletes - & have them start competing - while trans girls are still in the process of gaining that advantage? It’s hair-splitting, & their advantage becomes very clear very quickly - but That’s Not What The Rules Say. So again, unless that’s cleared up quickly, the girls will leave.

How exactly do they justify the inclusion in amateur women’s sport? Particularly since it’s known women & girls are far less likely than men to do sport outside compulsory PE lessons. Oh & that there are women who won’t be able to participate in sport with trans women; & even more women who would be distressed (up to & including trauma-generated responses) by a male-bodied person being in the women’s changing room & would thus not only be unable to return but potentially too fearful to seek alternatives. It’s an absurd “kindness” that ignores the very real needs of a substantial number of women.

Perhaps the solution is for all the women who “don’t mind” - the fully grown adults, I mean - to provide the sought-after validation? Only for as long as they are happy to, I mean, not as some kind of dreadful endless punishment for wokescolding. Of course, it may turn out all they can provide is the very occasional performative positivity in a public loo because they don’t do sport & have never been in hospital [other than to give birth] & don’t even know anyone who knows anyone - of either sex - who’s been in prison… but they still think everyone should just Be Kind about it.

More seriously, it’s very important trans people be able to access sport, especially as taking oestrogen (eventually) depletes trans women’s bone mass: doing weight bearing exercise to help counter that is really important. Something like Park Run could be great in terms of Mental Health, both the exercise & the community aspect. But it’s not ok for trans women to run in the women’s category. Organising a specific run for trans women at one/some of the bigger runs would almost certainly be viable - & presumably the system could be arranged to let TW everywhere race with the men but be recorded as TW.

Goodness knows mental health care needs absolutely oceans (we’re far past the buckets stage) more funding across every last service, but one of the many things that clearly needs doing is providing trans people with support in understanding & coming to terms with the fact that even if they have extensive surgery they cannot change sex. Because it is a damaging belief to hold - & frankly quite cruel not to break through that delusion to ensure their safety when it comes to medical care; to help trans women understand why [some] women do not want them in single-sex spaces & refer to their bodies as male; & to help trans men to understand that they will continue to vulnerable in certain situations - rapists don’t respect gender identity for example.

I can never quite decide if the members of the women’s suffrage movement & pioneers of women’s education would be surprised that this long after the extension of the franchise & women edging their way into universities (if not necessarily degrees ) women are still being so thoroughly trampled on by men, or if their response would essentially be a resigned shrug of “same shit, different century”. Because we have made progress - but we’re basically trying to overthrow the world dictator who’s been in situ since we overtook them Neanderthals (& tbh their women probably had to put up with similar) who doesn’t even recognise he is the dictator. It’s one thing trying to usurp someone who recognises they hold all the power; trying to overthrow the patriarchy when the patriarchy refuses to acknowledge the systemic oppression of women is quite another. Bastards.

Needmoresleep · 03/02/2022 18:35

Useful Mail article

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10470143/Womens-sport-decided-testosterone-levels-writes-JENNIFER-BRACERAS.html

They have been really good on sport.

Signalbox · 03/02/2022 19:17

Thanks TheAbbotOfUnreason

nolongersurprised · 03/02/2022 19:27

& even more women who would be distressed (up to & including trauma-generated responses) by a male-bodied person being in the women’s changing room

This is really important. I am up early in Australia to take my 14 year old daughter to swim training. She has a core group of girls she swims with and I know, from talking to their mothers, that they have felt as awkward as many girls their age have as their bodies have changed through puberty and they’ve had to deal with periods. However, as a group they’re comfortable hanging out in swimmers, helping each other get in and out of race suits and the benefits for fitness and the like are huge.

They are all good swimmers, they could easily put swim most adult men, but will not be Olympians and aren’t close to being “elite”.

If a 14 year old boy started changing with them my daughter would stop and so would some, if not all of her swimming friends. Some are incredibly shy and socially a bit awkward. The changing rooms are small.

And of course, another group of teenage girls giving up sport won’t make headlines, girls drop out all the time. But it would matter to them, they care enough to get up at 430 for training and it helps shape their self-esteem, relationship to their bodies and keeps them fit

Rolotoffolo · 04/02/2022 12:26

@FannyCann

Excellent comment there *@Delphinium20* and very heartening that 1. It was allowed snd 2. So many likes. Are Americans finally waking up to what is going on and will there be a push back? I do hope so.
He may have to learn the word NO

Tricky for men, I'm sure

Delphinium20 · 04/02/2022 17:10

If a 14 year old boy started changing with them my daughter would stop and so would some, if not all of her swimming friends. Some are incredibly shy and socially a bit awkward. The changing rooms are small.

And of course, another group of teenage girls giving up sport won’t make headlines, girls drop out all the time. But it would matter to them, they care enough to get up at 430 for training and it helps shape their self-esteem, relationship to their bodies and keeps them fit

Thank you @nolongersurprised for sharing - this is why women care. We know how important sports and fair competition can be for our daughters and any time a boy is allowed in, there is a risk of a silent leave taking of girls.

Just yesterday I attended my teen daughter's race (not swimming) - the boys scoreboard has times that all average higher than the girls. But what is so wonderful is how separation by sex means there are as many girls competing as boys! This was not true 50 years ago, not even 20. This is not complicated. We all know why we separate sports by sex. Girls deserve this and I will not go backwards.

PermanentTemporary · 04/02/2022 21:38

36 months - presumably American college degrees are 3 years? So this change in policy is designed to eliminate the reputational damage that has been caused by a male athlete competing in high profile US college events in front of lots of well off and well connected parents, and then switching categories while at the same college. As long as you appear at college already transitioned, so that the PR is easier to handle, fine.

The visuals of a highly privileged white jock male trampling all over women at their own college have been immensely damaging and they know it. This is a profoundly cynical policy change for the benefit of a profitable institution, not for trans people and not for women.

Needmoresleep · 05/02/2022 00:11

American colleges are four years. However if a swimmer is recruited for the men’s team, three years transition would be difficult. That said I think Lia took a year out, and there would be nothing to stop colleges recruiting the fastest high school students, if they did not care too much about why they were fast.

Signalbox · 05/02/2022 08:18

Short interview with Linda Blade.

drive.google.com/file/d/1ihVSw-O15FL1DxJebRtobORveiHcPkEe/view

PermanentTemporary · 05/02/2022 08:24

Hmm yes not sure my theory stands up...

I guess maybe it's more desperate poking around trying to find a way to make the world fit the idea that sex is psychological.

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