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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Webchat Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes.

37 replies

Enough4me · 01/02/2022 15:52

Not sure if other threads already running, I missed the webchat, reading it now I think they were kind and answered really kindly. I'd have preferred honest and honestly.

Either yes women just means literally anyone at any time they opt to be, or women are women, transwomen are transwomen.

OP posts:
Janeaustensquill · 01/02/2022 16:13

So disappointed but not surprised by their refusal to define women or engage with the issues for women if we cannot be defined. What is it doing to them? They must know they are being dishonest, inauthentic.
SC seems only able to support Rosie Duffield privately not publically from what she has said. If she can’t speak out to support her publically what use is that?

Janeaustensquill · 01/02/2022 16:14

Thanks to all the indefatigable posters for their insightful, important questions and following up on the frustrating weasel worded answers.

PleasantBirthday · 01/02/2022 16:15

I've just read it as well and it's extremely disappointing and I think, insulting. They, or their researchers, should have known what questions would really spark among the women here but they did no preparation and were not at all prepared to answer in an acceptable way.

It's another example of women, particularly mums, being taken for fools.

However, for the women who did ask questions, well done on asking very well thought out, forthright questions and being unafraid to ask in a straightforward and direct manner. More of women using their assertive voices.

IKeptYouLikeAnOath · 01/02/2022 16:17

That thread was a fucking shitshow. I thought there was a great post on there by @SurfacingLurker - I wanted to tell her so but the thread was locked. She said:

I hope that if you take nothing else away from this chat, you take note that there's a massive elephant in this room that overshadows everything else. I completely understand your reluctance to talk about this (and our hosts for not allowing it to dominate the conversation), but it is not going away and it's impossible for women to take you seriously if this term can apply to literally anybody at their absolute discretion. Can you not appreciate how this approach may encourage people not to take you seriously?

MerryPoppings · 01/02/2022 16:19

Very disappointing that on a topic supposedly about supporting women, when women asked about protecting their sex-based rights they are told they are "shouting" and to "be kind". Ironically misogynistic.

IKeptYouLikeAnOath · 01/02/2022 16:30

Just shows how utterly terrified people are of acknowledging the facts. It's quite devastating really. I try hard not to think about it a lot of the time now.

OhHolyJesus · 01/02/2022 16:32

"There is a lot of heat and not a lot of light."

Thought that's was Lisa Nandy's line, maybe it has been adopted as the official Labour party line...

How many times can that he repeated as way of response. It doesn't even make any sense. Sunlight is what we've got thank goodness and that's heat and light.

There's plenty of light and we see you and all the men that you stand for.

Original poster
Enough4me · 01/02/2022 16:33

@IKeptYouLikeAnOath yes I saw that too. I mentally imagined large blow up penis models in all women's changing rooms as the elephants in the room.

OP posts:
MsTSwift · 01/02/2022 16:35

I get such a sense of exasperation from those politicians - if only us pesky women would roll over and be kind and include anyone that wants to to enter our protected spaces and sports and not keep banging on about boring old womens rights.

It’s most inconvenient for them when they are trying to be the good guys and are too terrified to speak the truth. Look what happened to their colleague who did! Well done posters on that thread - keep on keeping on.

MidCenturyClegs · 01/02/2022 16:35

I think they were both absolutely pathetic and spineless. There is absolutely no point in talking about women in politics when you include males as women. You may as well be talking about flower arranging.

@mnhq @justinemnhq could we please have a web chat with some feminist politicians? Joanna Cherry, Emma Nicholson, Rosie Duffield

IKeptYouLikeAnOath · 01/02/2022 16:40

Be kind. To the people who wish we would die in grease fires.

Yes, truly a both sides sort of problem.

MidCenturyClegs · 01/02/2022 16:42

Just saw there is after all another thread on this

Mumsnet Webchat about women/mums in politics with Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes - 1st February www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4468516-Mumsnet-Webchat-about-women-mums-in-politics-with-Stella-Creasy-and-Caroline-Nokes-1st-February

Original poster
Enough4me · 01/02/2022 16:46

@MidCenturyClegs it would be great to have feminist politicians to chat, but I'm glad these two were invited as well because, although they peddled the 'be kind' mantra, maybe some of the questions will make them think.

The ones that asked why is it always women being told to be kind, when we all know that men are killing and hurting significant numbers of girls and women every week.

OP posts:
Original poster
Enough4me · 01/02/2022 16:48

Thanks for link, I'll stop writing on this one and use link above.

OP posts:
NotTerfNorCis · 01/02/2022 16:57

Mumsnet is trending on Twitter, I think because of this webchat.

TheTamingOfTheresa · 01/02/2022 17:11

Yes! This!

Lurking9Till5 · 01/02/2022 17:14

Well I’m glad I didn’t cancel my afternoon tea plans to take part in this. What a shit show and utter disappointment

Talking about women being empowered in politics but those women can be male.
Telling women to be kinder.
Threatening to delete posts that demand a clear definition of woman in order to be able to discuss women’s roles in and barriers to politics.

Both the MPs and mumsnet should be ashamed of themselves. More silencing of women. More celebration of males. You’re a fucking disgrace.

bishophaha · 01/02/2022 17:23

I do get the pressure they are under to never say what a 'woman' actually is and just make vague allusions to 'people'. I do! They're in a position where they literally can't define what 'woman' is or they'd lose their jobs.

Which is an absolute bizarro state of affairs, but I don't think anyone could argue it's not true - otherwise they'd have to provide the mysterious, elusive definition.

However, I did find it completely disingenuous to say 'we need to raise the debate' when they absolutely refuse to debate. That was where the mask slipped for me, that showed me that it's all a game of words rather than showing literally any desire whatsoever to establish common ground and work towards genuine solutions.

bishophaha · 01/02/2022 17:24

And I'm a lifelong lefty voter who doesn't have a clue who honestly represents me now.

FazedNotPhased · 01/02/2022 17:25

So disappointing. Absolutely done with Labour. Those two were a total embarrassment today.

Artichokeleaves · 01/02/2022 17:25

Yes, it's all a game of words.

I absolutely agree with Justine on the other thread: they told us exactly how they define 'woman'. Many, many women of the female kind will vehemently disagree and will vote accordingly.

This is what happens: they show us who they are. We vote accordingly.

KittenKong · 01/02/2022 17:35

One of them is whining on twitter. Twitter is mostly telling them to do one.

PleasantBirthday · 01/02/2022 17:42

@KittenKong

One of them is whining on twitter. Twitter is mostly telling them to do one.
I always assumed that you had to have a very thick skin for politics, but maybe not?
HermioneWeasley · 01/02/2022 19:11

Ooo, link to tweets please @KittenKong?

They can both fuck off to the far side of fuck with their “be kind” patronising wank. They seem to think we are idiots who haven’t given this any thought. How dare they.