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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet Webchat about women/mums in politics with Stella Creasy and Caroline Nokes - 1st February

609 replies

Bosky · 31/01/2022 11:56

Anyone got any questions for Stella and Caroline? Smile

Go to:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/4468388-Webchat-about-women-mums-in-politics-with-Stella-Creasy-and-Caroline-Nokes-1st-February

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9
Artichokeleaves · 03/02/2022 11:10

@CosmosLily

Pronouns - Fair enough, but then why continue to post the same questions again and again if you know the conversation wont go anywhere? (General you, not specifically you). Just seems like the chance for it to be constructive wasnt given in the first place.
Isn't it odd how it's always the job of women to be constructive, to do the legwork, to be nicer, to be friendlier, to do better, to enable, to take responsibility - while the other party just gets to be them in peace? And if anything went wrong, obviously women didn't do it right or try hard enough.

Deeply sexist. And prejudiced.

CosmosLily · 03/02/2022 11:10

YetAnother - People have indeed answered me and I've acknowledged that. A post brought on another question, or am I only allowed the one? In future shall I just stick my head in the sand when I don't understand something, or is it probably better that I ask questions and try to actually learn something?

Eresh I shouldn't have used the word derailing, that's not what I mean. More "shut down" I guess. Because people agree that there was no point in having the webchat, they didn't expect any answers because they expected/knew that the MPs wouldn't have the same definition as them on what a woman is, so then why bother posting? Was it either to shut down the conversation, or, probably more likely, to keep repeating it so that they (the Mps) understand they need to address the issue and not ignore it?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 03/02/2022 11:11

@littlbrowndog

Stella creasy on Twitter. Anyone who becomes a women. Just depressing
So men then - and they wonder why their ass was handed to them
Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2022 11:11

This issue is at the core of women's rights. It cannot be dimissed because politicians don't want to answer it.

However much people scold.

littlbrowndog · 03/02/2022 11:12

She don’t get that erish

We have the lived experience

Trans women don’t share that

We are different.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2022 11:12

Was it either to shut down the conversation, or, probably more likely, to keep repeating it so that they (the Mps) understand they need to address the issue and not ignore it?

If any other politician was talking out of both sides of their mouth, people would challenge it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2022 11:13

These people serve us, not the other way round.

CosmosLily · 03/02/2022 11:14

Waitwhat - Right, understood, thanks for explaining :)

Artichoke - I'm speaking about this particular webchat, so yes I am addressing women as I assume the majority of the posters were women. I don't get who the "other party" is in this context?

Milady - Once again, I'm not telling anyone how to "do feminism". I've explicitly said I don't understand, have said why I don't understand, have had an explanation from a couple of posters and I'm not arguing it. I don't have to agree with their reason, I simply wanted to know why so that I can understand.

Waitwhat23 · 03/02/2022 11:36

Was it either to shut down the conversation, or, probably more likely, to keep repeating it so that they (the Mps) understand they need to address the issue and not ignore it?

This is an interesting point. MP's are ignoring it or simply using it as a opportunity to smear women who they view as 'transphobes' (or 'rights hoarding dinosaurs' etc etc). As more and more women are realising what's going on, politicians will have to acknowledge that there is a clash of needs/rights or admit that actually, they just don't care about women's rights and at least be honest about that rather than hiding behind 'inclusive' dogma.

MiladyBerserko · 03/02/2022 11:37

Ok Cosmos, do you understand why it's not ok to let two female politicians off the hook answering key questions on a critical issue affecting women and girls' rights?

FOJN · 03/02/2022 11:43

If Stella really thinks biology matters then perhaps she could tell us how it matters and explain its relevance wrt how patriarchy oppresses both women and men "who become women".

NecessaryScene · 03/02/2022 11:50

Stella creasy on Twitter. Anyone who becomes a women. Just depressing

I can see why you might want to argue for "more women in parliament".

I can see why you might want to argue for "more men who 'become women' in parliament". (But I'd wonder why you didn't want "more women who 'become men'").

I can see why you might want to argue for both "more women in parliament" and "more men who 'become women' in parliament".

But why on earth would you argue for "more women, OR men who 'become women', in parliament", which is what she seems to be doing.

In what way would their being more women make up for a lack of transwoman representation, and in what way would there being more transwomen make up for a lack of female representation?

If you're going to look at groups, you need to consider all groups individually, not try and plop two clearly distinct groups together and count them as one.

These are not subsititutes. This isn't like demanding "free bus transport or bus vouchers" for some group, where they're both alternative solutions to one problem.

This is like demanding "higher pensions or better childcare". Separate problems, and fixing one doesn't affect the other.

FOJN · 03/02/2022 11:54

If we can't define what a woman is then how can we confirm that a man has "become" one?

JFC the phrase "those who become women" makes me want to smash things. It's only appropriate Stella if those you are talking about are girls. FFS we shouldn't need to explain this to adults. If Stella or her parents actually paid for her education she was robbed.

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2022 11:55

@PronounssheRa

Fair enough, but then why continue to post the same questions again and again if you know the conversation wont go anywhere

I don't want to answer for others because I didn't ask the question. But I suspect 2 reasons. The first, Stella and Caroline claimed to want to talk about barriers facing women in politics, so it was important to establish what they meant by women. Words and definitions are important. Secondly I suspect it was asked repeatedly because women are angry, and wanted to make it clear that this was a major stumbling block to discussing the issue. If only one person raised it it would be dismissed as a fringe issue that no one cares about, if a lot of people raise the same issue its harder to ignore

One of the barriers i have faced is precisely because Ive been told it was a niche issue that no one carried about so the Councillor concerned wouldnt support me, take it further. Indeed i was told they were too busy to give it any time because they were more interested in brexit and their own personal issues. This was a man.

I have written messages to demonstrate this.

There seems to be a pattern of lots of women being told its not important. After a while, of hearing the same thing from lots of different people, even though there's an increasing amount of evidence of issues - the Tavistock, prisons, womens sport, employment issues, independent research, academic freedom, bullying, women thrown out of political parties etc and how its affecting many things at a low level but its having a collective negative effect on women which is actually quite significant.

Women who are concerned about this tend to be women who have become political engaged because of the injustice.

They are really good people for political groups as a result because they have gone away, thought about it, come back with examples. They are diligent and dogged.

But time and again are told by gatekeepers its not important. Its not important because others are making that decision and aren't bothering to look at whats happening because they've already decided on the outcome before the consultation process started because they decided who was allowed at the consultation to begin with!

Its only because enough women have said 'you fucking what' that theyve been forced to reconsider that. If it was fringe why would they have had to do this? If it was fringe and no one was really that bothered, how come there's been a backlash from all these non existent people who don't care about the issue?

You get jaded by it after a while.

Constantly being told its not important and no one else cares by gatekeepers just highlights the underlying issue at play.

For the law to work it has to have clearly defined terms. This isn't something restricted to gender identity. You go and look at any law as written by Parliament (available at legislation.gov.uk) and you will see that the process of law is to define terms to avoid confusion and legal challenge. As it stands under law sex and gender are separately defined (indeed there is a case against the Scottish government ongoing at which one of the lawyers involved has pointed out that you csnt just decide to conflate sex and gender because you feel like it, you have to define it in law - the outcome could be significant as a result).

If we are talking about politicians asking about how do they improve things then the law as it stands and questions about how its not necessarily being used as it stands to the detriment of women are important. If politicians are redefining things because they have an opinion on what the law is rather than what the law actually is, thats an abuse of power and that matters.

If this itself is creating barriers (which Natalie Bird can tell you ALL about) to politics and you have serving MPs telling women not to join their party if they don't believe transwomen are women then that might be a barrier. If you have people telling you, you can campaign for things but not that issue thats a barrier, if you have people saying they can't speak out because they risk they will lose their jobs, even though they know professionally its ethically wrong (nhs staff saying they have to gaslight women asking for female only staff or cant tell women if there are males on a ward even if they know they have reason to believe they pose a threat) so cant take part in politics at a low level etc etc.

The definition really does matter. Its not for Creasy and Nokes to have an opinion on what the law is. Its up to them to uphold the actual law or definitely explicitly express how the law needs changing and write a new law. Which the public can have full sight of and debate.

Because thats how the law should work.

The very problem here is because people are taking the law into their own hands here, redefining it, and then enforcing non-law through fear and 'education'. This is where harassment and abuse is enabled and isn't being properly challenged and dealt with appropriately.

The law has to be fair for it to be respected. It has to have public consensus. Is there a public consensus that you can change sex? No. Is ther a public consensus that if you say your name is Sarah you are a women even if you have a penis? Without the need to legally go through any steps. No. Has this been scrutinised properly by Parliament. No.

These are politicians. What is their fucking goddam job for christ sake?

Not to mention how much of this starts with the undemocratic power in the party system which does not have checks and balances and has zero transparency and accountability.

And then they have the gall to TELL the public that these are the accepted and known barriers to public service to women and tough shit if your face don't fit that and your experiences are unimportant because they are 'niche' and no one else is having the same problem because we say so.

Good fucking grief!

Why is trust in politics at an all time low?

Because politicans think they can ignore the law when it suits them and come up with reasons by their opinion is that their party wasnt a party or this man wasnt actually a man but was a women because they say so.

Hello. Anyone home.

This isn't JUST about women's rights when it comes down to it. Its about contempt of the public and corruption where you go off and ask your mates rather than doing a proper consultation or approvals system.

Its everywhere.

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2022 12:01

These MPs are doing it because they want a shiny scheme to stick on their cvs and on a manifesto.

Hey look what weve done. Give us a gold star.

What they don't want to do is look at the complexities of an actual social problem, unpick it in detail and do the hard slog of trying to resolve those conflicts and difficulties.

They don't want women to point out the bleeding obvious and be difficult. They don't want their shiny little pet projects disrupted and pointed out as a pile of self serving crap that doesn't help anyone else in the real world.

Cos they spoils their ego trip and all the work theyve put in already which they'll have to go back to the drawing board with.

CosmosLily · 03/02/2022 12:03

Waitwhat - This is an interesting point. MP's are ignoring it or simply using it as a opportunity to smear women who they view as 'transphobes' (or 'rights hoarding dinosaurs' etc etc). As more and more women are realising what's going on, politicians will have to acknowledge that there is a clash of needs/rights or admit that actually, they just don't care about women's rights and at least be honest about that rather than hiding behind 'inclusive' dogma.

My initial thought was "oh for fucks sake why are they constantly repeating the same stuff and stopping the conversation from being about the actual topic". But, certainly, after this thread and your posts, It seems to be more about repeating these questions so that they acknowledge it needs to be spoken about. So it's not really "shutting down".

Milady Of course I understand, I've not once said that I think they should be let off the hook. They did answer the question of "define woman" and it was clear that it's not the answer the majority were hoping for. Some of the rest of their posts I found to be a bit unnecessarily snippy and kind of pointless, I don't think they did a good job overall, despite a couple of good posts.

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2022 12:05

Fundamentally the issue is women putting out that the Equality Act is being trampled over and ignored.

And women pointing this out are bad.

Politicians dont get to say 'any one who becomes a woman' on the basis of the fact they self identify, because thats not what the law says

THATS why it matters so much when they say it!

It shows they aren't upholding the law as it stands and aren't willing to go through the proper process of redefining in law because they know damn well that will actually cause even more issues because you will get direct sunlight rather than a situation where loop holes are being exploited and the law outright ignored.

CosmosLily · 03/02/2022 12:07

Redtoothbrush That was my question, thanks for giving such an extensive response. I admit to not understanding it in its entirety (I'm a bit new to all of this) but will re-read it a few times. Thanks!

RoyalCorgi · 03/02/2022 12:11

I raised a question about how the Labour Party ignores abuse aimed at women, that question was ignored.

And it's a really important point. Because women who are interested in politics will look at Rosie Duffield and think "No, thanks". Yet almost none of Duffield's female colleagues have stood up for her. How can we believe Stella's claim that she supports women when she can't do even the most basic thing of standing up for a female colleague who is being bullied by men?

RedToothBrush · 03/02/2022 12:19

If Creasy and Nokes want to change the law and redefine women on the basis of gender they should go through the proper challenges.

The fact they dodge the question which should be easy if its defined in law and not something thats remotely contentious IS the heart of the issue.

Why aren't women going into politics?

Because they aren't represented in law and laws that DO apply to them and are supposed to protect them under the Equality Act are just being ignored because of a campaign and culture of fear.

And women KNOW this. They know that whatever they want to do for women will just be binned off as 'not a priority' or 'niche'.

Why is there so much harassment and abuse of women in public office? Because its effective, gets results and there are no consequences to it.

And it doesn't benefit men to tackle it.

Its not rocket science.

Artichokeleaves · 03/02/2022 12:22

RedToothBrush

mammajustkilledagnat · 03/02/2022 12:30

RedToothBrush Joins in the applause until hands ache.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2022 12:35

They did answer the question of "define woman" and it was clear that it's not the answer the majority were hoping for.

They didn't. How does it help to vaguely refer to "those who become women" without setting out how that is possible? It's not the legal, the scientific or the commonly understood definition of "woman".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/02/2022 12:36

Politicians dont get to say 'any one who becomes a woman' on the basis of the fact they self identify, because thats not what the law says

Precisely.

CosmosLily · 03/02/2022 12:37

Eresh - They were asked how they define women and they gave their answer. Should they have expanded? Probably/definitely. But they did answer the question.