James O’Brien on now ‘pregnant people’

[GreekOlive]

Big fan of J’OB ON LBC but listening to Mystery Hour now and he’s continually saying: why does a sense of smell change in ‘pregnant people’ as one of the questions. It’s grating as well as ridiculous.

Anyone fancy ringing in to explain why a WOMAN’s smell changes in pregnancy?

I doubt oklets will absorb that data, no matter how often it is repeated. Not today anyway.

Maybe in the future oklets may have that moment many of us had... that "Oh crap! I said what?" moment when we read something our brains couldn't ignore.

Ah a fly by!! I’m sure they’ll be back when they can explain how saying that only women can give birth denies the existence of trans ppl

I think a lot of young people in particular think the problems are historic , they don't realise how much health and safety is still geared towards the male default

@oklets

Thanks *@spikesonbuildings*, there are some good points in this. I agree some of the language they refer to in this is really clunky and can see some of the issues with that. But 'pregnant person' isn't really difficult to understand. Nor does it seem dehumanising. A lot of the replies on here are nothing to do with these issues and do seem just an angry anti-trans/non binary thing.

Its death by a thousand cuts though @oklets.

If its ok in one circumstance then it must be ok in another till the word woman is obsolete which makes our sex based rights obsolete.

And a lot of us are keen to keep them

@oklets

All I'm hearing is 'women have the right to be called women'. This is true, nobody is denying this. Then 'ONLY women give birth'. This is true only if you deny the existence of trans and non binary people. Think my question has been answered so toodles 👋🏼

No, we don't. But its telling that you ran off rather than engage in a conversation on this.

Woman has, throughout history, across cultures, meant adult human female. Which rather shows its vital importance as a category. We don't deny that there are women who identify as a male gender. That doesn't change their sex (woman). We recognise the importance of keeping the word 'woman' to mean the female sex, for all the many reasons outlined here.

*women have the right to be called women'. This is true, nobody is denying this
Well, you are very clearly denying this. If you saying women can be called women, but so can these other people who are male, then you have destroyed the meaning of the word women, as when that word if used no-one knows if it is referring to women or males.

Its rather like saying cats can be called cats, but so can dogs.
You've destroyed the meaning of the word cats by doing that, haven't you?

Let's remember that babies are people too! So instead of talking about "women giving birth to babies", we should talk about "people giving birth to people". That would make everything clearer.

I wish I’d been treated like a person when I gave birth… but sure, let’s fight over what we’re being called. That’s much more important than the coercion and obstetric violence that’s happening up and down the country whether you are a cis woman, non-binary or a trans man. But, yeah

• being called a “person” is the issue. That’s why I needed £2000 worth of therapy for the trauma. Good to know 👍

Its part of the same movement to pretend that sex is irrelevant to how women experience the world. And doing that causes real harm to women. Using language that denies women's experiences as women, leads to making women's experiences invisible and that does harm women and is harming women. I would say that is pretty dehumanising to women, yes.
Poor maternal health care in many parts of the world reflects the low status of women. We can't recognise this as a structural inequality that women face, if we can't refer to it as something that affects women only. We can't address sexism if we can't name our sex.

@oklets - Can you please tell me your view on the perfectly sensible reasoning on why it is important to distinguish 'women', from 'people'.

You seem to be focussed on the 'words', rather than the explanations.

You think being called a person not woman would mean you got treated better?

I think you will get worse treatment if the word woman is removed because it will hide what is happening

The inclusive word is 'women'.

All non-binary and trans people who are pregnant (or have periods, or give birth, or have a cervix etc etc) are 'women'....which is a sexed word, referring to the sex of the individual/s.

And no, the 'additive language' of 'women and pregnant people' does not work. Why? Because it conflates sex & gender identity.

Of course there are women who say they identify as men or neither men or women, but unless they are totally deluded, they realise their sex remains the same. And why do we care? Because if you pretend that sex is not the salient biological feature of being pregnant, giving birth etc, how can you recognise, name and challenge the sexism that affects all females? If we're all just 'people', then how can we claim to be discriminated or disadvantaged or ignored on the grounds of our sex?

If everyone has a gender identity and will not even acknowledge they have a sex, then women lose out.

And that's one of the reasons why I'm rather tired of 'being kind' to women who say they are not women. I'll be polite, but going along with their idea they have somehow opted out of sexism? No.

@SamphiretheStickerist It’s because of people like you and others on this board that I have carefully listened to and observed this change in language. The impact of this shift you so eloquently summarise is having real negative influences on women and women’s health.

My ability to articulate this isn’t as good as others; however, I was rather pleased to have noticed this on the radio today, as 6 months ago I wouldn’t have had picked up on this nuance

@zmq3Zm96uijcs2c

I wish I’d been treated like a person when I gave birth… but sure, let’s fight over what we’re being called. That’s much more important than the coercion and obstetric violence that’s happening up and down the country whether you are a cis woman, non-binary or a trans man. But, yeah

• being called a “person” is the issue. That’s why I needed £2000 worth of therapy for the trauma. Good to know 👍

But that's part of the point. Women have not been treated as people. They have been treated less well than men, their concerns dismissed. Do you really think that if childbirth and pregnancy was considered a "people issue" we would be seeing the issues we are today. The female sex class have a name, they should be able to use that name without being accused of bigotry.

Why don't people read the fucking thread?

Not just plop shit all over it.

Have a look at the actual points we are making then answer them if you have answers (yes I know, i"ve just answered me own question there haven't I?)

I don't blame oklets for not hanging around. If you really can't see that it's sex and not gender identity that's the issue when discussing who gets pregnant, then really all that's left are insults and a swift exit.

JOB is another grifter, bit like OJ & Ash Sarkar.

How do you figure?

Anyway as we’re basing outcomes on feelings, I think continuously reminding medical staff of our personhood might combat the ingrained misogyny that runs through the profession.

Being called “Mummy” from sun up to sunset didn’t save me. It was patronising and frankly, coming from them, infuriatingly dehumanising.

I am a cis het female who visibly presents as such too, just FYI.

@BlueberryCheezecake

You are as quiet as a church mouse whenever there is a thread about a trans woman raping someone.

Where were you when we were talking about that?

You only turn up to offer you nonsense contrarian bullshit responses on threads that won’t shatter your false weak world view that a man can put a dress on and become a woman.

I have time today!

Women get pregnant.. no man ever in the history of the world has gotten pregnant or given birth.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Women still not people in the GC world, I see.

I'm a person, can I get pregnant?

@zmq3Zm96uijcs2c you were patronised and treated in a way that made you feel belittled because of ingrained sexism in the maternity services (which reflect the world, after all). The answer is not to say 'don't treat me like a woman, treat me like a person, please!' but to see how women are systematically patronised and treated in a belittling way (sometimes worse than this, in the way women's bodily autonomy is not respected).

@zmq3Zm96uijcs2c

I wish I’d been treated like a person when I gave birth… but sure, let’s fight over what we’re being called. That’s much more important than the coercion and obstetric violence that’s happening up and down the country whether you are a cis woman, non-binary or a trans man. But, yeah

• being called a “person” is the issue. That’s why I needed £2000 worth of therapy for the trauma. Good to know 👍

Actually our whole point is that coercion and obstetric violence is a form of violence against women, and reflects the low status of women. We can't fight for society and services to treat women as equal human beings if we dilute and hide the analysis of what happens to us as women. As we dilute and hide it if we can't name it as happening to women.

fuck off with that offensive cis shite

I am a cis het female who visibly presents as such too, just FYI.

What a load of ridiculous verbiage to say you are a woman.

@oklets

I am a woman, I have given birth. I have no idea why people get so worked up about the use of inclusive language. Is it simply that you deny the existence of trans/non binary people?

Language has to be exclusive, not inclusive. Otherwise no one would be sure of what you were saying and you may as well walk around saying "wibble".

"Wool comes from sheep" makes it clear to someone as to which animal they should use the clippers on to make a new scarf. If I told you that "wool comes from four-legged herbivores", I would be technically correct but simultaneously left wondering what you were doing to that cow.

Actually our whole point is that coercion and obstetric violence is a form of violence against women, and reflects the low status of women. We can't fight for society and services to treat women as equal human beings if we dilute and hide the analysis of what happens to us as women. As we dilute and hide it if we can't name it as happening to women.

EXACTLY.