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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

For those who like to declare that "sex work" is empowering

108 replies

prudencepuffin · 24/01/2022 17:56

No doubt many of us are aware of the material in this film but it is nonetheless shocking and might be worth showing to young people who are told that believing this is a tenet of the new feminism.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60091717

OP posts:
Whitefire · 26/01/2022 10:16

Just watching Sold: Sex Slaves Next Door. On BBC iPlayer. It is harrowing. Pie might claim that this is totally different, but this is fueling what is happening in the UK, it is not possible to separate them. Support 'sex work' support the abuse of children and young women, it is that simple.

StrangeLookingParasite · 26/01/2022 11:16

Well if that happened I hope the first thing the sex worker would do is report him for rape.

And what do you think that would achieve?
Your naïveté (bordering on wilful stupidity) is painful to read.

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/01/2022 14:32

In addition these types of client would likely find it difficult to get a booking with other sex workers (they have ways of communicating with each other and share clients to avoid).

They do. Round my way it was called the Bad Dates Book. The shelter workers and women would maintain it. It was full of rapes, robberies, kidnappings, assaults, forced sex acts apart from rape, you name it. The descriptions were sometimes the same but mostly different. Were any of those crimes reported to police? Like fuck they were. I had to stop reading it. It made me hate these men in a way that wasn't healthy. I still had to comfort and help the women though. And hear things from them.

I've worked with prostituted women for decades. I've personally been friends with a few women who worked. The only one who I would call 'happy' and 'consenting' in her work was a dominatrix who never had sex.

And by the way, I know more women who died than who were happy. I don't know a lot of other 'jobs' like that. Happy to decrim the workers. Happy to pursue and punish the Johns to the full extent of the law.

Whitefire · 26/01/2022 15:27

One thing in that documentary I mentioned a few posts up, is that one of pimps / traffickers is that it was better to do this than drug dealing as the latter required money flow and a distribution network, whilst the former you could just do. It seems as well that the penalty for it is virtually non existent, possibly because if the girl (we are talking 12 year olds here) said that she was there of her own free will then nothing can be done. High rewards : low risk. Sad

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 26/01/2022 15:39

You realise sex workers have the right to refuse service to clients with poor hygiene, and to call the police on anyone abusive to them?

///// Such empathy and compassion from a predictable poster.

FFS like women in this trade can cherry pick their clients and only go for the Richard Gere types.

Jesus Christ.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 26/01/2022 15:41

Wow, comparing Uk Punting to AirBnB. Confused

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 26/01/2022 15:44

Cross posted with so many of you, soz.

Sophoclesthefox · 26/01/2022 16:50

It’s inevitable that Marg will pop up on a prostitution thread to cheerlead for how great prostitution is.

No answer ever for what percentage of women Marg thinks genuinely choose to do it. No compassion ever for those who don’t have the choice. Can’t ever envisage the physical and psychological harm done to women by days, weeks, months, years spent letting strange men penetrate their body (there’s always cam work!)

You pays your money, you makes your choices, eh?

Springsoda · 26/01/2022 20:14

At the risk of being jumped on I have to agree that there is a huge difference between sex trafficking and sex work. The reason so many sex workers are in danger is that the industry is largely unregulated and unsported. There is an important discussion to be had around the industry but mumsnet is not the place, it simply does not hold space for sex workers voices to be heard.

UltraVividLament · 26/01/2022 21:09

Hopefully some questions are not perceived as being "jumped on", nor a pointless activity...?

Can you say why Mumsnet is not a place that the voices of women involved in prostitution can be safely heard?

Would you see any issues with men paying women for sex, even if it was regulated and supported as you'd like? Would you consider it to have a neutral or positive impact on women and society, if it were regulated and regarded in the same way as employment/industry?

foxgoosefinch · 26/01/2022 21:10

What would a “properly regulated and supported” sex work industry look like then, @Springsoda?

The evidence from countries that have tried this suggest a regulated sex industry makes things less good for the women and less safe, rather than more - cf. Germany.

It’s very touching to put such faith in capitalism to “regulate” dangerous or immoral or exploitative industries. A bit like saying that trafficked Chinese workers picking cockles would be just fine if we could get Amazon to take over managing their employment rights.

And tell me, if an industry is exploitative, wrong and commodifying of our basic humanity, why is it we need to ask sex workers anyway? We don’t ask the employees of Shell to dictate policy on climate change, nor the cleaners at a tobacco company if we should ban smoking, or child sweatshop workers what employment rights would make child labour a bit better. We decide that some things are unhealthy and wrong for us as humans, and we restrict what can be bought and sold accordingly.

We’d rightly ignore it if the Chinese cocklepickers’ collective agitated for the right to be paid half the minimum wage on the grounds that they freely chose to be treated illegally at work. But notice that only when men’s ability to dehumanise women’s bodies is involved, that everyone’s so keen to talk about hearing “voices” that legitimate prostitution by claiming it as a “choice”.

And particularly, on the left where so many useful idiots have lost their heads about this issue, you will find nothing more right wing, individualist, capitalist and market-obsessed than the “SWIW” lot on this issue. All leftist thought flies out the window when it’s a woman’s body that is getting commodified and corporatised, and all the shrieky “progressives” are suddenly all for the idea of sex work as gutsy little small business operations - for all the world like so many tinpot Maggie Thatchers in defence of the small time paid rape “industry”.

Marxism for bros, capitalist oppression for hos - quite quite literally.

Sophoclesthefox · 26/01/2022 21:55

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2022 21:57

The model sex work groups (British orgs include Scot-Pep, Umbrella Lane, English Collective of Prostitutes etc) is decriminalisation which NZ has. This model is also supported by many human rights, anti-trafficking, health and anti-STD orgs.

There's a list of signatures at the end of this letter if that helps.
decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

Germany is mentioned on here a lot, but Germany is not decriminalisation.

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2022 22:00

"The model sex work groups advocate for"* I meant to post.

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2022 22:03

"In countries that have brought in the Nordic Model, sex workers have not, as is often promised, been ‘decriminalised’. Brothel-keeping – which is defined as two or more people working together – remains a crime, forcing women to work alone or risk arrest. When police raid workplaces with the stated aim of arresting clients, it is repeatedly sex workers who are charged"

From above link.

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/01/2022 22:06

@MargaritaPie

"In countries that have brought in the Nordic Model, sex workers have not, as is often promised, been ‘decriminalised’. Brothel-keeping – which is defined as two or more people working together – remains a crime, forcing women to work alone or risk arrest. When police raid workplaces with the stated aim of arresting clients, it is repeatedly sex workers who are charged"

From above link.

Your argument seems to be, because the police are sexist and abusive, we should allow all men to be sexist and abusive.

I mean it's a position.

How's about instead we allow brothels and still crim Johns and pimps? You know, like the Nordic model actually is?

foxgoosefinch · 26/01/2022 22:10

@MargaritaPie

The model sex work groups (British orgs include Scot-Pep, Umbrella Lane, English Collective of Prostitutes etc) is decriminalisation which NZ has. This model is also supported by many human rights, anti-trafficking, health and anti-STD orgs.

There's a list of signatures at the end of this letter if that helps.
decrimnow.org.uk/open-letter-on-the-nordic-model/

Germany is mentioned on here a lot, but Germany is not decriminalisation.

That’s why I wrote regulated and not decriminalised Marg - though on every thread you demonstrate serious problems with reading comprehension, so that doesn’t surprise me that you don’t read what’s actually written.

You’re an enthusiastic cheerleader for women’s sexual exploitation, who repeats so many daft ideas over and over again, that either you must be astonishingly thick or just get off on the idea. Which is it?

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2022 23:32

"How's about instead we allow brothels and still crim Johns and pimps? You know, like the Nordic model actually is"

That isn't the Nordic Model at all. Under the Nordic-Model, sex workers are criminalised for working together (ie "running a brothel"). Ireland has increased the penalites for sex workers working together since introducing the Nordic Model.

news.sky.com/story/hundreds-arrested-for-running-brothels-as-sex-workers-say-its-the-laws-that-are-criminal-12117653

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/crime-against-sex-workers-almost-doubles-since-law-change-37957334.html

In Nordic-Model Ireland, more sex workers have been arrested for working in a brothel than clients have been arrested for paying for sex.

*"Kate McGrew, sex worker and director of Sex Workers Alliance Ireland (SWAI) says the new laws have created a buyer’s market, putting workers at risk.

“The purchasers of sex hold the power, this is in direct opposition to what we were told was the intention of the law,” she said.

“Sex workers are not decriminalised.

“The penalties of sex workers sharing premises together, also known as brothel keeping, has doubled since the introduction of the new Sexual Offences Bill in 2017.

“Sex workers are now forced to work in isolation, which puts them at further risk of violence and exploitation.

“Since the law has been introduced many more sex workers have been arrested than clients.

“We want sex work decriminalised so that the power gets put back in the hands of the worker.”"*

MargaritaPie · 26/01/2022 23:34

In Nordic-Model Ireland, more sex workers have been arrested for working in a brothel than clients have been arrested for paying for sex.

Any comment to make on this?

Hawkins001 · 26/01/2022 23:36

@LilithOfEden

Did they watch Pretty Woman as a young person and know f-all about the reality of sex workers lives?

I think greater harm was done in this country by the "empowered modern day courtesan" myth pedalled by Belle du Jour (Dr Brooke Magnanti). Apart from anything else, she made men feel good about themselves using prostitutes - because perhaps they were helping some would be PhD student to fulfil her academic dreams Hmm

From the Oxford debate she had and other debates, Dr Brooke Magnanti, seems to have good research on various points.
Metabigot · 26/01/2022 23:38

@CousinKrispy

Consent cannot be purchased
Says who? Just you or is that an actual definition of consent?
MrsTerryPratchett · 26/01/2022 23:50

@MargaritaPie

In Nordic-Model Ireland, more sex workers have been arrested for working in a brothel than clients have been arrested for paying for sex.

Any comment to make on this?

Yeah. The police and courts are also sexist misogynists.

Brothel keeping should be defined properly. Involving a pimp. Rather than several women having room on common with shared protection they hire if necessary.

Honestly though, don't pretend your actual concern is women and girls. It's repulsive.

ForeverFaithless · 26/01/2022 23:52

This reply has been deleted

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MargaritaPie · 26/01/2022 23:57

"The police and courts are also sexist misogynists"

The police aren't the ones who made the laws. Blame the politicians who decided women should still be criminalised for working together when they passed the Nordic Model in Sweden/Ireland etc.

"Brothel keeping should be defined properly. Involving a pimp"

I think some people misunderstand what a brothel is and think a brothel is only a brothel if there's a pimp/madam in charge of the sex workers. If there's 2 or more sex workers working there then it's a brothel regardless if there's a pimp involved or not, and they don't even need to be working at the same time.

MrsTerryPratchett · 27/01/2022 00:00

Please don't fucking explain sex work to me. I was working with sex workers when all the libfems were babies. 30 fucking years ago I was witnessing horrible abuse of young sex workers and I still am.

I'm saying we CAN define brothels how we'd like. And the bad thing about brothels is pimps. And location. Which can be decided with proper town planning.

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