School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

Literally no difference whatsoever. None.

@beachcitygirl

Would you object to your daughter sharing rooms with a lesbian?

Bingo!

Why is this a concern though - do lesbians not have the same anatomy as straight girls or something?

[quote ServeBacon]**@foodfiend

they are all friends anyway and supported her thru her transition and coming out at school. Parents know the teen group well - it's a non-issue really.[/quote]
I don't believe it is a non issue.

Anyone who come home pregnant needs to share with others who could come home pregnant.

Those who can make someone pregnant should stay together.

Schools are remiss and cowardly to place this on the shoulders of parents.

@NecessaryScene

One of the most admirable parts has been how accepting the boys have been in making this a less harrowing experience for the person.

A (male) cynic like me would suggest that teenage boys can spot an easy opportunity to get laid. A lot of boys will tell a girl anything she wants to hear to get into her pants.

A girl desperate for affirmation of her identity from a boy is a potentially easy mark... Female "boys" are going to be quite popular. And more easily available, if they're foolish enough to let them sleep with the boys.

This. 💯

Anyone who come home pregnant needs to share with others who could come home pregnant.

Those who can make someone pregnant should stay together.

It's almost as if a whole urbanised segment of society is totally divorced from the basic principles of animal husbandry.

We don't keep males and females apart because of their hair lengths or facial markings, you know...

Whether it's ok does vary depending on circumstances. On choir tour we had a gay lad and he shared with his best friend, a straight girl, they were 15 and parents were consulted - they both had slept over at my house before then too, he was one of the girls! I was a bit uncomfortable but it was just as awkward with him sharing with one of the lads as they were uncomfortable and there wasn't money in the budget for spare rooms so they had singles. It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

As a poster up there said - her son's boyfriend is female. So they are in a heterosexual relationship and it would be massively inappropriate for them to share a room on a school trip, however they identify.

Being friends does not mean they don't deserve the same dignity and privacy as everyone else.

Why cant a gay boy be in with the boys. Wtf

Teach the boys not to be so homphobic fgs

@gogohm

Whether it's ok does vary depending on circumstances. On choir tour we had a gay lad and he shared with his best friend, a straight girl, they were 15 and parents were consulted - they both had slept over at my house before then too, he was one of the girls! I was a bit uncomfortable but it was just as awkward with him sharing with one of the lads as they were uncomfortable and there wasn't money in the budget for spare rooms so they had singles. It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

Nope, never appropriate. Very poor safeguarding.

Ask for an impact assessment. The health and safety lead should be shot if they've allowed this.

I’m amazed that so many organisations seem happy to leave safeguarding in the hands of teenagers

Of course youngsters are not as concerned about these things as adults, the clue would be in the “young” part. There are still teenage girls who think you can’t get pregnant the first time or if you’re standing up. It is adults job to safeguard them from things they don’t yet have the experience to really understand

It also bears remembering that lots of “trans girls” are not in fact gay but straight

I’m amazed that so many organisations seem happy to leave safeguarding in the hands of teenagers

As a 14-year old, I certainly would have been very happy to advise the adults on what I was okay with. Particularly with regard to sex segregation.

Adults seemed to be more adult back then though, and weren't having it.

It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

Teenagers aren't hugely different now. They just have different challenges to face. One being adults not actually adulting and putting the responsibility on them instead.

Basic safeguarding. Segregation by sex. Not gender.

It's not complicated.

The safeguarding rules are that males and females sleep separately. End of.

Feelings do not change reality. Sad and touching anecdotes do not change reality. Having achieved wonderful things via a personal journey do not equal being allowed to break this boundary. Children really really wanting to break this boundary does not equal being allowed to break this boundary. Arguing that a transitioning child is not the same a male child does not equal being allowed to break this boundary. The boundaries are there for the children's protection ffs and also for the staff's protection, while they are in the care of school staff. Feels don't come very high on this list.

Trans children should absolutely be able to have different provision to the others of their sex if they wish: this is the respecting of their identity and meeting their need. They are not an exemption to safeguarding.

Pressuring female children into accepting special exception male children into their accomodation will simply exclude female children where they or their family are unable to sleep in mixed sex situations. if the staff are far enough out of their trees to indulge this truly insane idea with nothing more than hope, a lot of ideology and a wilful blindness to the basic reality of the situation

@NecessaryScene

I’m amazed that so many organisations seem happy to leave safeguarding in the hands of teenagers

As a 14-year old, I certainly would have been very happy to advise the adults on what I was okay with. Particularly with regard to sex segregation.

Adults seemed to be more adult back then though, and weren't having it.

Trans children should absolutely be able to have different provision to the others of their sex if they wish: this is the respecting of their identity and meeting their need. They are not an exemption to safeguarding

I'm.torn about this tbh

We go on about having their identity etc respected then elevate them to a status others can only dream of. I'm.sure even child would love a private room and private shower etc all this extra expense amd restrictions on where they can go and all this pandering is just going to mean that these trips just don't happen. It's all gonna require extra staff, more expensive insurance. All to avoid , what all the other kids are told on a regular basis, saying no.

Frankly whatever a kid or adult decides to do is up to them. However of its being done on the expectation of others going along with it and special treatment and then it's on the adults around them to ensure that its made clear that it's not theor job to do this nor have they been asked if they even consent. No is not a dirty word.kids are told it all the time every day fir their own good their own safety and because their wants do not trump everyone else's needs.

I would just put my foot down and tell my child that there will be no sleeping arrangements that could result in pregnancy.

Completely this. I don't have DC, but I am a teacher. Although it hasn't come up yet on any of my school trips, this is the line I would use to say a blanket "no" to supervising any such trip.

That said, the latest iteration of keeping children safe in education explicitly includes peer-on-peer abuse, points out that girls are more likely to be victims and boys more likely to be perpetrators, and requires school staff to minimise the risk of it happening. I'd seriously worry about the competence of any safeguarding lead who would permit mixed sex sleeping arrangements on a school trip.

As a young teen many years ago I shared many camping trips with girls and was never “touched up”. One sleep over with a male friend and his sister and i was. This pair were my best friends. I never told my parents. He took advantage of the situation. Just one occasion that’s all it took.

@gogohm

Whether it's ok does vary depending on circumstances. On choir tour we had a gay lad and he shared with his best friend, a straight girl, they were 15 and parents were consulted - they both had slept over at my house before then too, he was one of the girls! I was a bit uncomfortable but it was just as awkward with him sharing with one of the lads as they were uncomfortable and there wasn't money in the budget for spare rooms so they had singles. It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

No it really doesn't depend on the circumstances, it depends on the biology. WTF is going wrong at that school that a gay lad doesn't feel comfortable with the boys, bloody well sorting that out should be where the attention is focused!

@Feelingoktoday

As a young teen many years ago I shared many camping trips with girls and was never “touched up”. One sleep over with a male friend and his sister and i was. This pair were my best friends. I never told my parents. He took advantage of the situation. Just one occasion that’s all it took.

I am sorry.

As we've seen from the experiment on female prisoners in prisons; when something inevitably goes wrong and women are sexually assaulted and raped, the political lobby merely shrug and argue it's only a female hurt, it's not like it matters.

Which illustrates the core issue here: that other people have rights too.

@gogohm

Whether it's ok does vary depending on circumstances. On choir tour we had a gay lad and he shared with his best friend, a straight girl, they were 15 and parents were consulted - they both had slept over at my house before then too, he was one of the girls! I was a bit uncomfortable but it was just as awkward with him sharing with one of the lads as they were uncomfortable and there wasn't money in the budget for spare rooms so they had singles. It's a case of is this appropriate for this very specific friendship group and remember youngsters are not as concerned about sex and gender as adults are, they are friends

Nope, friendship groups are irrelevant to safeguarding.

And even if they were, we all know how fickle they can be!

Yes Ploppy! I find the idea that girls should accommodate gay boys as “honorary girls” because the straight boys are bullying them as all kinds of wrong! I mean what lessons are we teaching with that?

That girls are support humans for boys
Tjat boys can bully without consequence
That a boy sexually attracted to other boys is somehow a girl?
I mean ffs!

The job of any safeguarding lead and Health and Safety Officer is to minimise risk.

On school trips particularly, by law, every school must adhere to stringent risk assessment policies and those responsible need to consider every possible risk and put measures in place to prevent these where possible.

Can a male impregnant a female abs have life changing consequences particularly for the female? Yes. Hence we have single sex provisions.

Ask for their Impact Assessment.

So pleased to see so many adults speaking out - especially parents and teachers. People are waking up to what's being done to children in the name of "inclusion" and it's great to see everyone happy to challenge and not being intimidated.

@Goatsaregreat Well, it's one thing to speak out here. I'm now dealing with the consequences of saying 'hang about' which is that dd (and presumably her friends) now all think I'm a horrific transphobe. I'm feeling pretty crushed and not very happy to challenge at all. dd is preparing a letter to educate me.

(Interestingly, I'm the target of the letter - DH is off the hook. Seems like the same rules apply as in the outside world. Everything is women's fault for not being nice enough. )