School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

Convo with deputy head was pretty awful. She's clarified that they would have informed us and got our approval, but that the policy is to deal with everything case by case. I've pointed out that this is terribly unfair on everyone, forcing us to look like we're make some kind of judgement about this individual child, which we're absolutely not, and feels awful. She says they're following the LEA guidance on safeguarding, and sent me a link to the Local authority's Transgender inclusion toolkit. This has a huge great 'Stonewall approved' stamp on the front. I'm not going to post it here because outing, but here's what it says about residential trips:

"As far as possible, trans pupils should be able to sleep in dorms according to their gender identity. Some trans children and young people may not feel comfortable doing this and in such cases alternative sleeping and living arrangements should be made."

That's it. There is nothing, literally nothing, about how any other children might feel about this, what risks might arise from such an approach, or how to handle parents, children from religious minorities where single sex is particularly important. Nothing. The only question the guidance prompts schools to ask is 'What does the trans young person want?'

So, I guess I should just be relieved that the school are going as far as to ensure the children and parents are happy with any arrangement, right?

So sorry to hear that OP. This is a direct result of the school's actions. In addition to forcing the decision onto children they have again avoided all responsibility and are now discussing your discussions with the school with children.
I'd make an urgent appointment with the Head to lay out a formal complaint:

1. The failure to safeguard children by implementing mixed sex sleeping and putting the onus on girls to acquiesce to demands to share bedrooms / bathrooms.
2. Why has your discussion with staff about safeguarding been shared with the children?

Ask for their complaints procedure as the leaking of your safeguarding concerns to children is outrageous, inappropriate, breaches confidentially and potentially dangerous.

Re your daughter - I'd just reassure her that you know she's a lovely caring young women, reiterate that your proud of her for caring about others but reinforce that as an adult you see the big picture and why she might be happy to agree to sharing, girls should not be put in the position of having to agree to this. These need to be adult decisions. And then agree to disagree.

Just seen your last post - that's what a captured school look like. And what the future is for girls with their needs and rights being at the bottom of the pile.
I'd definitely ask for the complaints procedure and follow it up. Expecting 14 year olds to make decisions about mixed sex sleeping is plain wrong. They want it, then they allocate it and face the consequences. It abdicating professional responsibility.

I know there are some smart folk on here who know about safeguarding, so would really value some pointers here. It strikes me that while this has been forwarded by the safeguarding lead as their justification for this approach this is very much NOT a safeguarding policy. The only reference to safeguarding in the whole document is this:

"There are no issues under child protection or safeguarding law or practice specific to trans children and young people aside from what is in place to keep all children and young people safe. For example, there is nothing that would prohibit trans children and young people using the changing rooms or toilets which reflect their gender identity."

What does a safeguarding policy look like?

Oh, thanks @Goatsaregreat, that's good advice for my conversation. I am proud of her - she's a good friend, and she's willing to stand up for what she thinks is right. (This is why I think girls like her are so at risk here - even if she was worried about such an arrangement, she wouldn't admit it because she'd want to be a good ally.)

In fairness, I don't know yet what's been said in school. (Waiting for my letter/lecture after dinner). But if we've said no, there isn't any way that the school can avoid revealing that to the children, even if dd were to claim she didn't know. (I think all her friends have been told at great length all weekend about how awful I am.)

I'd check in with dd that she will read a counter letter from you in response to hers and be prepared to "be educated" by it

OP,
Take a look at Safe Schools Alliance. They have lots of advice on talking to schools and one of them posts on here @Twofalls is their name I think. They have lots of resources about speaking to schools and safeguarding is what they do. Here's a link to their factsheet on single sex changing:
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/#Single_Sex_Toilets_and_Changing_Facilities_factsheet

I think when talking to a teen you’ve got go facts, there’s so much pressure to believe and conform you need to take emotion out. I’d go through these with a highlighter and talk to her about the balance of risks.

committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/b41fb362-6615-4e9b-950e-36859358e023

How on earth can a school be expected to make decisions on a case by case basis?

How are they expecting to decide who gets to share with girls and who doesn’t without opening a massive can of worms about student’s identities? Are they going to advise parents why their trans child can’t share with opposite sex pupils but another trans child can? How is that workable? Because they’re allowing 14 year old to be ultimately responsible? How is that going to work?

Oh god, your 14 year old is writing you a letter to educate you 😂 I bet you can’t wait.

I’m utterly baffled at the number of adults who seem to lose all ability to think critically around this matter.

I would also say that Baroness Nicholson would probably love to hear about this safeguarding decision by your LEA and your school.

@Helleofabore

I would also say that Baroness Nicholson would probably love to hear about this safeguarding decision by your LEA and your school.

Absolutely

Safeguarding:

'case by case' - how do they propose to deal with a situation where they have female children who are keen to have their male friend in their room, and other female children who will not be able to come on the trip if the sleeping accommodation is mixed sex?

What will they do when a clearly unsafe, unsuitable male child wishes to use the precedent already set? Because it will be nearly impossible to say no without it being personal and discriminatory.

How exactly do they intend to justify that this male child is different to the other male children that are absolutely not allowed under any circumstances to sleep with female children? Because when they have a female child who has been harmed by this, they'd better have a watertight reason.

Policy by Stonewall is, frankly, that no one and nothing matters but the child of interest to Stonewall. Stonewall et al merely shrug when women are harmed in the pursuit of providing male people with access to female spaces, they do not care . And that tells you everything you need to know about how subhuman and inferior they regard females of all ages. These policies are not balanced, they are not responsible, they are oblivious to the realities of safeguarding or duty of care equally to all children, and are incompatible with law as has been pointed out many times.

The school are insane if they do not envisage what could go wrong and what will happen when it does. And if it is not in them to care about the children, then perhaps they may care about their own careers and imagine themselves at the wrong end of a serious case review and the national press.

Although again, parents should be aware, from bitter experience, it is likely that much effort and pressure will go into concealing anything that does go wrong. This political lobby is not responsible about that either. They are not a body to place trust in.

Sex is no guarantee of additional safety, but established friendships which are viewed to be good ones by the adults that know the teenagers are probably more likely to be a protective factor.

@suggestionsplease1 have you taken leave of your senses? Sex is the key factor in whether an accidental pregnancy is a risk.

OP - check online that the LEA toolkit which has been quoted to you in still current, and has not been withdrawn. Google it! Other LEAs have been forced to withdraw that nonsense as being unlawful.

Get onto your LEA, threaten legal action if they do not withdraw this unlawful document...

@DdraigGoch

Sex is no guarantee of additional safety, but established friendships which are viewed to be good ones by the adults that know the teenagers are probably more likely to be a protective factor.

@suggestionsplease1 have you taken leave of your senses? Sex is the key factor in whether an accidental pregnancy is a risk.

For a poster on these boards not to be able to distinguish between when the word 'sex' is used to refer to the body type rather than the act, is unusual. The paragraphs preceding that made it clear what I was referencing.

I'm glad the OP's daughter is trying to be a good friend to this person, goodness knows it is needed considering the isolation and shame so many young trans people endure and is reinforced on a day-to-day basis when they are viewed with suspicion and contempt.

Yes! Down with boundaries for girls!! Support humans are us - centre boys feels at all times
Ffs

I'm glad the OP's daughter is trying to be a good friend to this person

Enough with the emotional manipulation here. Safeguarding is not personal and anyone who encourages any female to lower their boundaries in this way (ie sharing a room with a male under the guise of changing sex) is not a good friend.

Fgs you can be good friends with someone and not share a room with them to prove a point.

A male child should be in with other male children. Teachers and students should not be made to be responsible for keeping up the charade because the parents won't tell them the truth.

Girls who are abused or assaulted are very often friends with the abuser/attacker. It's usually someone they know, like and trust. (Same for women.)

The school must have a policy on this. Ask to read it. They can't just run with, it's fine in this case because the children are friends.

Sorry - just saw the 'policy'. Which is not a policy. Case by case is the opposite of a policy, and entirely inappropriate in safeguarding.

Your dd may be entirely correct in this case, just like plenty of non trans-identifying males could share with the girls and be no threat whatsoever to them. But it wouldn't be allowed, because the policy is there to prohibit it, which means no one is accusing specific boys of being a threat.

Don't expect the LEA to have risk assessed the toolkit they're promoting, I found out my local LEA puts this responsibility on schoolsb even though the schools might not realise.

Lots of good advice on this thread. Best of luck op. And shame on the few here who have tried to gaslight and emotionally manipulate you into putting a male child's desires above your daughter's safety, privacy and dignity.

For a poster on these boards not to be able to distinguish between when the word 'sex' is used to refer to the body type rather than the act, is unusual. The paragraphs preceding that made it clear what I was referencing.

You really ought to be aware the sex of the body is totally relevant in this instance. As I’m sure Ddraig was stating.

@Helleofabore

I'm glad the OP's daughter is trying to be a good friend to this person

Enough with the emotional manipulation here. Safeguarding is not personal and anyone who encourages any female to lower their boundaries in this way (ie sharing a room with a male under the guise of changing sex) is not a good friend.

You do realise the emotional manipulation here and the sexism and issues for female children?

It is absolutely possible to be a good friend to a person, to be kind and supportive, to meet all the needs in fact of a trans child without requiring girls to validate them by removing their boundaries and regardless of their best interests. You are suggesting here that it is unkind for teenaged girls to not validate this male child with their bodies and that is what this is . Their physical presence, in a state of undress, in a state of vulnerability, regardless of usual boundaries, to make a male person happy.

Teaching female children that saying no to male people, having boundaries, or feeling able to say no when their privacy, their dignity and their safety, is unkind and not being a good friend is absolutely not ok. Trans children are not walking victims, they are not the responsibility of female children, the trans child has an equal duty to be a good friend to girls, and that involves respect for their boundaries and their needs too. It is not always and only about trans children. Females are not a subordinate kind of human to them.

Many teenage boys are absolutely lovely. I know lots. Nevertheless, on average one girl is raped in UK schools each day.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4277947-12yo-girl-commits-suicide-after-being-raped-by-a-boy-at-her-school

But what about the safety of the male child? If you think this child is no risk to the girls, what about this child?

When performing intimate examinations on female patients, male healthcare staff ask for a chaperone for their own protection, as well as the female patient's comfort, in case of a genuine misunderstanding leading to an official complaint, or a female patient making a malicious allegation later.

I am always surprised that no-one wishes to safeguard teenage male children against such eventualities. If either is a risk for healthcare staff from adult patients who have deliberately sought medical treatment, surely each is a much higher risk in the tempestuous social environment of a secondary school? When a male child is expected to sleep in the same room where various girls are getting prepared for bed?

Male children who feel unable to share with other boys should be given private space of their own for changing and sleeping, as a matter of routine. Not just shunted into the girls' spaces.