School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

And having a private room is fine if we are looking at “equality of opportunity”- if the child cannot attend the school trip if they can’t share with boys just as other adjustments may need to be made to accommodate other pupils who have very specific requirements.

But sharing with girls is absolutely not a human right.

Are there any plans to let all kids sleep in mixed sex dorms however they choose because they're all nice kids and friends?

No? Because a whole lot of reasons?

Then there are no exceptions to this. Those reasons have not gone away because of how a male child identifies. Either we don't need sex separation at all, or we do. One or the other. But as 16 pages of thread discusses, there are a lot of issues and reasons why children need the protection of sex separation by responsible adults when away from home on a school trip, under insurance, in the care of people in loco parentis.

'Wouldn't it be nice if we just..' has no place in that.

@Isaw3ships

‘ It's nothing to do with the pupil's trans status,’

Yeah. Except it’s everything to do with it. The whole discussion is about trans kids and school trips.

Stop making it out to be about trans. No parent would let their DD share a room with a male. It is about sex. Not gender. Not identity. It is about safeguarding. It isn’t about trans. Just for once it isn’t about trans it is about sex. I really don’t understand what is difficult about that. Girls are vulnerable because of their sex. Not their identity.

‘Stop making it out to be about trans. ‘

It is about a trans kid though, isn’t it? Stop making out that the school is trying to make 2 girls share with some random teenage boy.
They’re suggesting that a trans girl,‘part of a friendship group with these two girls could share a room with them, and the teens in question all
Seem okay with that. It’s the parents who are objecting despite,apparently, having no concerns about the tran child in question in any way.

I haven't read the whole thread, just the OP's posts. Safeguarding trumps being kind every time. I'm a teacher and have been on many residential trips. No way would I allow this, in fact, I'd refuse to go on a trip if the Head insisted on this. Ask your MP to raise this with the department for Education.

It’s about a trans person only because if the child identified as male it would be a non starter- regardless of

• part of a friendship group with these two girls could share a room with them, and the teens in question all Seem okay with that.*

It’s changing standard policy for a child who is only different from the rest of the teenage boys in how they wish to be referred to.

@Isaw3ships

‘Stop making it out to be about trans. ‘

It is about a trans kid though, isn’t it? Stop making out that the school is trying to make 2 girls share with some random teenage boy.
They’re suggesting that a trans girl,‘part of a friendship group with these two girls could share a room with them, and the teens in question all
Seem okay with that. It’s the parents who are objecting despite,apparently, having no concerns about the tran child in question in any way.

Teenagers are ok with a lot of things that are a bad idea. At 14 I was ok with having sex with my bf, that turned out to be a terrible idea leading up an unwanted pregnancy & a termination. It is not up to 14 year olds to make the rules, safeguarding exists for a reason

A trans girl is still a teenage boy

Isaw3ships

Please explain exactly what has happened to this male child to make them no longer a the same safeguarding risk as another male child.

Specifics please, since we are not getting it. Male children under 18. What has changed?

Please include studies that show those exact changes of any male transitioning that make them less prone to being a safeguarding risk. And also statistics. Because this is the real world now and not fantasy.

We will wait.

Utterly pointless trying to discuss anything to do with trans people on here. Trans people aren’t going away though and using the argument that trans people don’t really exist with It’s just a man in a dress trying to get access to women, isn’t going to work.

@Isaw3ships

‘Stop making it out to be about trans. ‘

It is about a trans kid though, isn’t it? Stop making out that the school is trying to make 2 girls share with some random teenage boy.
They’re suggesting that a trans girl,‘part of a friendship group with these two girls could share a room with them, and the teens in question all
Seem okay with that. It’s the parents who are objecting despite,apparently, having no concerns about the tran child in question in any way.

So, would you let any male pupil sleep in with the female pupils if they were friends? Mixed sex sleeping arrangements for all at school? And you can't see a problem with this? What material difference is there between this male child that says they are a girl and a male child that says they are a boy, and why should they be treated differently?

Ah I see you don’t have a coherent argument about why teenagers of the opposite sex should share rooms laws just because one of them has a different gender identity and they’d all really like too

@Isaw3ships

Utterly pointless trying to discuss anything to do with trans people on here. Trans people aren’t going away though and using the argument that trans people don’t really exist with It’s just a man in a dress trying to get access to women, isn’t going to work.

So why not answer the questions so that we can see the error of our ways rather than flouncing? Is it because you have no actual arguement and just think we're being mean? And TBH, you're not discussing or engaging anyway, you ignore any point made and just keep saying it'll never happen and handwaving it away.

@Isaw3ships

Utterly pointless trying to discuss anything to do with trans people on here. Trans people aren’t going away though and using the argument that trans people don’t really exist with It’s just a man in a dress trying to get access to women, isn’t going to work.

Who has said the kid doesn't exist?

What a bizarre argument

@Isaw3ships I agree that it's pointless to discuss this with you, because you aren't engaged in any kind of discussion. Your argument is essentially that you don't care about safeguarding and that everyone should just shut up and be kind.

@Isaw3ships

‘Stop making it out to be about trans. ‘

It is about a trans kid though, isn’t it? Stop making out that the school is trying to make 2 girls share with some random teenage boy.
They’re suggesting that a trans girl,‘part of a friendship group with these two girls could share a room with them, and the teens in question all
Seem okay with that. It’s the parents who are objecting despite,apparently, having no concerns about the tran child in question in any way.

That's because teenagers are still learning about boundaries and safeguarding. And why it's the job of adults to make sure those boundaries and safeguards are in place. The trans child sex is male. Girls don't share with males on residential trips, even if their 'identity' is female. Its sex that is key here. Not gender. My teen daughter would not be sharing a room with born males either under these circumstances.

@Isaw3ships

Utterly pointless trying to discuss anything to do with trans people on here. Trans people aren’t going away though and using the argument that trans people don’t really exist with It’s just a man in a dress trying to get access to women, isn’t going to work.

Don't be silly. Obviously trans people exist. Those born male simply won't be sleeping in the same room as our daughters. Because. Safeguarding. It's not that hard to grasp.

Enough with the tropes from the TRA checklist.

Our school has a similar policy, it seems to work on the handful of occasions it’s been used. There’s no question of a trans pupil going in a dorm type accommodation but in a situation where they can be accommodated with one or two friends then they will be, as long as their friends and the parents are in agreement about it.
The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

Oh fgs they are teenagers!!! There are lots of things that they won’t see the inherent risk in because the are fucking 14 years old!! It is adults job to protect them because as yet they don’t have the life experience to protect themselves

A trans girl is a teenage boy with a functioning cock & libido. We don’t put teenage boys however they present and however much the girls like them overnight in rooms with teenage girls because of the risk of sexual activity

I can’t believe this has to be spelt out in words of one syllable

Would you let girls and boys share in general if everyone was ok with it?

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

Lovely. No-one who a girl is "happy to spend time and share a space with" has ever hurt her or got her pregnant.

So what do you say when it's what you would call a "boy"?

The reality is that students don’t see this boy as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

Are you letting "boys" in as well as "trans girls" with this argument, or are you discriminating against the boys? If so, how do you justify the discrimination?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Would you let girls and boys share in general if everyone was ok with it?

You won’t get an answer to this. It seems that when a 14 year old boy identifies as a girl they lose all their maleness. Yet they are 14, have a penis, probably fancy girls - unless they are gay - but that’s sex not gender.

Our school has a similar policy, it seems to work on the handful of occasions it’s been used. There’s no question of a trans pupil going in a dorm type accommodation but in a situation where they can be accommodated with one or two friends then they will be, as long as their friends and the parents are in agreement about it.

Do you do a risk assessment? "It seems to work" isn't exactly a guarantee.

And that’s how most boys are seen and, crucially- how most boys are yet schools do not room opposite sex pupils together. Not because they hate boys or think they don’t exist or hate girls and think they don’t exist but because schools act in loco parentis and that means a high standard, not a relaxed, free and easy neglectful parenting style. It may even be to a standard higher than we parent our own kids.

Schools can’t put an 18 movie on for under 18s (or anything over PG for primary age children) even if at home a teacher would let their 15 year old view an older rated movie.

In what sense is a trans boy any different from any other boy? Can they be attracted to girls? Can girls be attracted to them? Are they able to impregnate a girl? These are some of the reasons we separate opposite sex kids. However a child identifies does not alter that.
Use their new name, let them dress in skirts, grow their hair, call them “she” by all means- but none of that can prevent two 14 year old finding themselves with a baby they didn’t plan on.

Of course trans kids exist- this whole thread would not exist otherwise! But adults need to be responsible even if it makes them seem boring or unpopular.

No one is suggesting these kids stop being friends, or the girls shun their mate but a policy that rests on 14 year olds making the rules is unworkable and unfair. Because loopholes create problems and it’s an adult responsibility to close those loop holes. And opposite sex bedroom sharing, which is what this is no matter how much you want to believe TWAW is fraught with problems down the line and if you think this is about prejudice towards a trans child you are blinded by your own belief system.

Past experience suggests this is a mistake.

@Isaw3ships

Utterly pointless trying to discuss anything to do with trans people on here. Trans people aren’t going away though and using the argument that trans people don’t really exist with It’s just a man in a dress trying to get access to women, isn’t going to work.

I think it is you showing your own prejudice here.

By the way, this board is for discussing the impacts of other groups rights on those of females. It is a feminist board. It is not a trans board.

Safeguarding is an important process for keeping females of all ages safe and all children too. That is what is being discussed here.

You and other posters are trying to twist this to be other than it is.

So again, what exactly has happened to this male teen to make them get special treatment for the safeguarding decision for the females in this scenario.

They certainly have their own safeguarding needs, but for this purpose of safeguarding the females is what we are interested in here.

And your lack of answer is just as useful to the readers on this board as is your answer.

I’m wondering how ofstead would react to that level of risk assessment “it seems to work”