School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

What happens when the sixth form is invited too? Can an 17 year old trans girl share a room with your 14 year old? They are friends, so what’s the problem? Yeah I can really see you letting your DD share the room then. But hey ho let’s put our 14 year olds at risk.

What makes you think trans girls don’t fancy girls? If they fancy boys they are gay, if they fancy both they are bi.

I honestly find this so scary. Its like the vax deniers, will insist the vaccines are poison, in the face of all evidence and common sense, right up until they are in intensive care.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together

The reality is even as adults females sometimes don’t see their friends as predators and yet, some of those friends turn out to be absolutely predators.

The reality is that no males should ever be accommodated in with the females on a school trip.

There is also a privacy issue to deal with. Of getting dressed and undressed.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who argues for teenage boys to share sleeping quarters with teenage girls sets off all sorts of red flags. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together will know why.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with

The reality is that the school has to assume the worst case scenario given the statistical threats that male sexed students can pose to female sexed students. In this situation the views of parents and students about a particular male student are totally irrelevant.

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together

And no teen has to be either predator or prey to do something stupid and impulsive with dire consequences during the trip, if adults are not smart enough to avoid creating extra opportunities for stupid impulsive behaviour.

“This year’s school trip is providing a bit of a headache- we’ve got covid restrictions to take into consideration on top of Mrs Jones’ lovely son who we all think might be gay who want to share with Lily and Megan, that’s fine, they’re all friends, Quiet Paul gets bullied by the other boys so he wants to share with the girls- no one fancies him anyway and his dad is a vicar, they’ve told us he respects no sex out of wedlock so we’re good to go there. Danny the Creep wants to bunk with his girlfriend and her hot mate, if there least popular member of staff can tell his parents why we think he’s a potential rapists unlike the lovely other boys that would be great. Also can you tell his parents he has been viewing porn on his phone and touched a girl inappropriately at break while you’re at it. Hopefully even though his mum’s a lawyer they won’t see any discrimination here and we won’t get sued. Fingers crossed people! We got this!”

The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with

Good..I'm.glad they don't see their friends as a predetor. I'm.really happy nothing has ever happened between any of them to disrupt the friendship or give reason to be suspicious.

But safguarding applies to even the nicest people with the closest friends. Why does a male child need ti bunk up with girls to prove safety status?

Is there a certificate? Is there a stamp saying " safe" on their file?

What's the motive of placing the children in this situation?.who does it benefit? Do you get a nice little header to put on your school letter paper?

TRA point of view - the teenage boy is now a girl - what is the issue? If you complain you are a bigot. No safeguarding issues here. Anything bad that happens is a 'one off' and no trans child is capable of being a 'bad actor' or acting in bad faith.

GC point of view: The trans girls is still a biological boy and we don't want biological boys sharing with biological reasons at 14 because there is risk for both parties. Actual harm and accusations of harm.

TRA: Ok well that risk is worth it.

GC: No it's not.

= no agreement is possible. It's a waste of time trying for both sides. For TRAs the risk to biological women is acceptable so everyone is included.

Well done for stepping up, absolutely the right thing to do. I fear that something awful will happen before this issue is taken more seriously. I’ve been in the awful situation of knowing someone for years before finding out they were a sexual predator, absolutely nothing about them indicated they were, nothing, I would have sworn they were really a really lovely thoughtful person until their computer was seized following a complaint from someone they’d recently befriended. The only thing about them was that they were male. The thing with safeguarding is that we never know who is risky until something awful happens. And awful things happen a lot more frequently than most people think.

I didn't see my new boyfriend as a predator but I was wrong and he raped me.

That's the problem with making decisions on a case by case basis - sometimes we get it wrong.

And that's why safeguarding policies must be a blanket policy - because if you make decisions on a case by case basis, you can get it wrong. Or as @Deliriumoftheendless shows, you are put in impossible situations.

The fundamental aim of schools acting in loco parentis as they are on school trips is to keep the children in their care safe. And the safest way to organise sleeping arrangements is by sex.

@Isaw3ships

You don’t want her to share with a trans girl, so she won’t share with a trans girl. End of. Many schools have a similar policy. Your DD thinks you’re unreasonable not letting her share with her trans friend. I see her POV but ultimately she can’t do anything about it.

Teenagers often do think their parents are unreasonable. Then they grow up and realise how their parents knew best after all.

For TRAs the risk to biological women is acceptable so everyone is included.

Reminded me of Sophie Grace Chapell the transwoman philosopher who, despite being the father of 4 daughters, declared on radio that a spike in women being murdered would be worth it for self id to be introduced.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4353901-Radio-Scotland-Kaye-Adams?pg=2

no agreement is possible.

There are 3 possible policies here.

• Keep the male/female separation rule.
• Abandon the male/female separation rule.
• Maintain the separation rule, but make it not be male/female any more, but act as if it was.

We're all in favour of the first option, because it's been proven to work.

It seems that the TRAs don't want the second option, although it's sometimes hard to tell.

The third option which seems to be what the TRAs advocate is fundamentally nonsensical.

Much like male/female separation in sport, the only reason the policy makes sense is if you're actually separating males and females. If you're not doing that, the policy won't achieve work and can't be justified. You have to choose one of the first two options to have a policy that will stand up to legal challenge. Self-identified-gender-identity-based discrimination cannot be justified. Sex-based discrimination can be.

Jane Clare Jones just published an essay - bit heavy, but relevant bit:

If we understand that we are beings-in-the-world, and that concepts are tools that interface between us and the world, as we materially interact /with/ it, it suddenly becomes much easier to understand how concepts and the world relate to each other. (Part of the problem here is that philosophers tend to /think/ about the world, not /do/ stuff in it). This also usefully explains why the trans activist effort to efface sex and replace it with gender identity causes so many material fuck-ups. As I once said to Grace Lavery, what you are doing is taking my hammer, replacing it with a fish, and telling me I can still hit nails with it.

So sorry Clymene

@Isaw3ships

Utterly pointless trying to discuss anything to do with trans people on here. Trans people aren’t going away though and using the argument that trans people don’t really exist with It’s just a man in a dress trying to get access to women, isn’t going to work.

This is such a lazy retort.

By choosing not to engage to discuss why is this instance safeguarding is irrelevant and instead throw "anti trans" accusations out there you really do come across as a one who doesn't give a shit about young girls as the feelings of one trans child trumps them.

I'm genuinely interested to know more about your views on safeguarding and why, when it comes to a minority it's ok not to be worried. Don't forget the transgirl in question isn't actually recognised as such in the eyes of the law as they aren't yet of age to obtain a GRC.

And actually if it's so pointless trying to engage "on here" why even click on the thread in the first place? As other than adding to the perception that a poster like you will happily throw women under the bus, what value specifically does your post add?

@Isaw3ships

Our school has a similar policy, it seems to work on the handful of occasions it’s been used. There’s no question of a trans pupil going in a dorm type accommodation but in a situation where they can be accommodated with one or two friends then they will be, as long as their friends and the parents are in agreement about it. The reality is that students don’t see their trans friend as either a predator or someone to be preyed upon in a situation where they’re on a trip together, but rather just as their friend who they’re happy to spend time with and share a space with.

That's very lovely.

What is it about the magical power of friendship that = absolute safety?

And what is my DD was in this friendship group and actually, she felt uneasy about this? Should she just STFU? I would really like to know your view.

I'd like to echo what an earlier poster said, that teenage girls are not human shields or there to validate another persons identity.

They should be in single sex spaces as afforded by the EA
Boys are not any kind of girl

@lovelyweathertoday

You need to contact the school, arrange a meeting with the head and head of safeguarding and make it completely clear that you think the adults need to be in charge and insist the sleeping arrangements are single-sex.

Don't worry about being "that parent", sometimes parenting is awkward and you don't get thanked at the time.

Even if nothing happens on this trip, it will do sooner or later, and the girl will be the one who suffers.

This

@334bu

So sorry Clymene

Thank you. It was a very long time ago but I really wanted to make the point not about me but more widely - that women are sexually assaulted and raped by men they know and trust all the time. Our trust is often misplaced.

It's beyond stupid that anyone thinks it's ok to let a 14 year old boy share with female peers AND they should refer to him as a girl
It's emotionally abusive and in breach of safeguarding measures

@Theeyeballsinthesky

A lesbian isn’t potentially going to get another girl pregnant hth

God the wilful ignorance of safeguarding is mind boggling

They are 14 - they haven’t the first clue about a huuuge number of things in life one of which is a teenage boys (however they may present) sex drive

I know. It's embarrassing and dangerous