School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

I wish this thread was in AIBU/Chat so more parents could see the deliberate disregard for safeguarding so earnestly argued by those who think they are "being kind". And see just how low the status of teenage girls is; always expected to put the needs of others first.

My tween is BFFs with a tween of the opposite sex. Known each other forever. Both lovely lovely children. It is not saying that there is something bad about them when we tell them they're no longer allowed to share a room on sleepovers. It is safeguarding. And an understanding of natural, basic biology and youthful curiosity.

Genuine transphobia would be treating the transgirl differently from other males. Don't forget safeguarding is for the benefit of all the children here. Whilst the impact is obviously far worse for female children, the negative effect on the life of the transgirl should sex happen, should the transgirl impregnate a girl, would be considerable. The other males are being safeguarded from that eventuality. It is transphobic not to do the same for the transgirl. And I'd be fuming if I was their parent.

I really don't want this to be personal - that's why I want this to be about their policy, rather than this individual scenario. It's horrible being put on the spot and expected to make (what looks like) a judgement about an individual child that I hardly know.

It looks like the LEA's trans inclusion toolkit is based on the same template as the one which Oxfordshire County Council were forced to withdraw last year due to a legal challenge for misrepresenting equality law. Key phrases are identical.
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/legal-action-against-oxfordshire-county-council/

I'll be sending the school the link to the information about the withdrawal and also the excellent 'letter before action' which lays out the ways in which the content is open to legal challenge.

If you're a parent reading this, and you find this issue concerning, I urge you to find out whether your LEA has adopted a similar policy, and alert them to the fact that it has a very shaky legal basis.

I'm wishing with all my heart that I had done so last year, instead of putting my head in the sand and assuming that it wouldn't affect us personally.

I think this is the fallout of things like Stonewall advising authorities and companies. I'm sure much of it is well-intentioned, but it is short-sighted, agenda-driven and impractical imo. We are only just having to start unpicking the real and unintended consequences of the madness.

Op whereabouts in the country are you? Not to stalk you ! Just in case my child has a school trip coming up.

It is a great idea that I should check with the school how they would handle this ahead of time.

Can I just say, I'm really pleased to hear that you are remaining firm on this with the school.

It's hard enough to try and advocate for female spaces. Throw in a stonewalled school, a bunch of 14 year olds and a Mimsnet thread full of debate and it becomes a big old fight to continue.

I'm glad that you are, and hope that this thread inspires and motivates others to feel confident enough to do the same

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz Thank you. And thank you to everyone who's engaged thoughtfully with this discussion. (And no thanks to those who've just plopped by to call me a bigot. I don't think this moves anything forward, frankly. A good solution to this difficult situation has to mean taking into account the feelings of people other than the trans child.)

I don't know about standing firm. If we don't agree to this arrangement I am genuinely frightened about what might be unleashed. I am in Wales, where a woman was arrested this weekend for putting up stickers stating that men shouldn't be in women's prisons and 'Cervix is a woman thing'. (See Jennifer Swayne thread) So to be honest with you, I'm frightened that if someone (maybe even my daughter) makes a formal complaint that I've uttered hate speech such as 'Yes, but this child is male' I might actually have the police at my door.

So I'm not going to reveal the name of my council @Newcastleteapot If you want to know whether your council has adopted this guidance I'd suggest googling [Name of Council] trans toolkit or trans inclusion toolkit and see what comes up. It looks like quite a lot of them were adopted by councils around 2018/19.

From a quick scan they seem to be written to a template (presumably provided by Stonewall?) 'tailored' with some kids artwork and a gushy foreword from someone in the council.

Oxfordshire Council withdrew a toolkit - clearly based on the same template - following legal challenge, and said they would await further guidance from the Equalities and Human Rights Commission. So all of these toolkits should be open to the same legal challenges and really ought to have been withdrawn. The letter before action linked here gives a pretty thorough run down of the issues; safeschoolsallianceuk.net/legal-action-against-oxfordshire-county-council/

Obviously the process elements will have been different in each case. But I'm pretty confident that the only organisations involved will be those representing 'trans kids', with no input from women's groups, religious groups etc, and that no equality impact assessment or risk assessment will have been carried out.

Fair enough OP. Thank you for raising this issue. As you say it is NOT the children you know in question, but the precedence it sets.

Hm, I agree you could have started with policy before you were personally affected, but now your DD is obviously involved and if you raise the general policy now you could be seen as "the parent who didn't want the trans child around her DD on a school trip and hid behind policy".

So I would do it step by step and first ask about the risk assessment for letting these teens bunk together. If the school haven't done a risk assessment, or you don't get a satisfactory answer to what mitigations they will have against any additional risk to your DD, that's the time to escalate to policy and legal considerations over the trip. Same as you would do for any other issue involving your own child and another child who through no fault of their own is posing some risk that you expect the school to manage properly in all the children's best interest.

Then go back to the broader aspects of their policy after the trip is over and you and DD are no longer personally involved.

This is a hobsons choice if ever there was one. If you are an employee, you also need to consider what would happen in your workplace should this get out. Trans activists frequently contact employers of who they see as transgressors.

It is easy to say when i am not facing the choice, but i think this would be a hill I would be prepared to die on. 14 year old males sharing sleeping quarters with girls is all kinds of wrong, i don't think i could stomach tacitly endorsing it. But absolutely no judgement if you make a different decision.

I agree OP that it is not necessarily safe to be honest.

We are all going to have to become accomplished liars. I suspect a family event has come up for you that means your dd will not be available for that overnight trip, oh dear what a shame. And I may back out of a toilet I've suddenly discovered is mixed sex without being labelled as such, murmuring about having forgotten my san pro oh dear what a silly.

Should women and children have to learn to be extremely good liars to be able to access society?

Not anywhere sane, no. Right side of history? Only if you're one hell of a misogynist.

All of this confusion stems from the idea that 'getting ahead of the law' was a good thing to do. It was expected that self-id was going to be brought in and the EHRC under the direction of David Isaac, mis-represented the law and allowed public bodies to move forward. Public bodies are finding that the law does not recognise self-id, however, some are still following SW guidance or have become entrenched, I assume because they don't expect a legal challenge.

Well done Op

OP google Kent County Council - looks like they took the transkit down back in 2020 after being challenged by a parent about the legality of it.

@Feelingoktoday Thank you for the tip. It looks like similar toolkits have been withdrawn in Merthyr Tydfil, Kent, Doncaster, Barnsley, Warwickshire, Oxfordshire and Shropshire, but are still in place in many other council areas, including my own.

@highame That makes a lot of sense. I just don't understand what all these safeguarding, diversity and inclusion specialists are doing if they don't notice a significant change in their sector like this. Possibly just hoping no-one notices?

DD had a 12th birthday sleepover, 4 girls and 2 boys. In tents in the garden. I went down to find the boys dry humping the girls. Party over.

I'd thought they were too young, they'd all been friends for ages and there'd been no sign of any of them feeling their friendships would be/could be more than Platonic. None of the other parents had concerns for same reasons. Wrong wrong wrong.

If you need support, you could contact twitter.com/swwalesresister/

I've no idea if you're in that part of wakes but they will be able to direct you towards women in your area.

Thank you for standing up. This stuff is so bloody hard and the easiest less scary thing to do is back down, feel uncomfortable and hope nothing bad happens. You're brave not to do that

@Jux Oh good grief. What a nightmare! That must have been awful to deal with the fallout.

@Clymene "the easiest less scary thing to do is back down, feel uncomfortable and hope nothing bad happens" Yes, the parents of the other girl are taking the approach that making everyone feel awkward by saying 'no' is a more serious risk of harm than any risk that would be run by allowing this to go ahead. Which is exactly why this 'case by case' approach is all wrong. We're being pressured to go along with this against our own judgement, potentially setting a precedent for another scenario which might have totally different risks.

We contacted the other girl's parents (who we know) to let them know what was being proposed, so they had the chance to make their own decision, and to let the know that we hadn't yet decided, but would support them if they wanted to voice concerns - neither their daughter nor the school had told them anything yet.

The outcome of this is that their dd has told the trans girl that we've said no (which we haven't) and therefore are transphobic, so the proverbial is already hitting the fan.

I can't believe we're in a place where it takes courage to stand up and say 'Has anyone thought about the risks of putting male and female children in the same bedroom?'

It sounds like this is not going well foodfiend.

You are already being painted as the bad parents by these teens. And getting pressure by others.

Which in itself is a whole other issue. The pressure being applied to allow a safeguarding exemption. Ie. A safeguarding fail.

saying 'no' is a more serious risk of harm than any risk that would be run by allowing this to go ahead. Which is exactly why this 'case by case' approach is all wrong. We're being pressured to go along with this against our own judgement

Absolutely nails it.

Are you in touch with Safe Schools or FPFW OP?

I have been following this with interest/horror. I looked at Scotland’s approach to this. There was a guide published Aug last year called “Supporting Transgender children in Schools” by Scottish Government.

There is a section on Residential Trips that states “ • If a transgender young person wants to share a room with other young people who share their gender identity, they should be able to do so, as long as the rights of all those involved are considered and respected.”

It then references at the bottom of that page an appendix which points to more information. The appendix says “ The 2010 Act also contains an exception relating to communal accommodation.99 The EHRC’s Technical Guidance for Schools sets out that “‘Communal accommodation’ is residential accommodation that includes dormitories or other shared sleeping accommodation, which, for reasons of privacy, should be used only by persons of the same sex. It can also include residential accommodation that should be used only by persons of the same sex because of the nature of the sanitary facilities serving the accommodation.” The guidance also sets out the matters which a school would wish to take into account in relation to the exception.”

So their guidance is a clear exception to the EHRC Technical Guidance for Schools which is actually referenced in their document! This is crazy - and going to end up like your situation @foodfiend with parents having to intervene in each case.

How did this madness happen!?

As there is a proactive duty in the Equality Act to prevent indirect discrimination of harassment, bad feelings, ostracism etc.... I suspect this may be worth pointing out. You have a belief, tested and protected in law. The trans child is also being subjected to the situation of 'we have to see if everyone agrees' which is going to turn out to be a popularity contest versus other people being permitted rights too, which is equally horrible for them. It is likely that a school will quickly encounter girls with faith, culture and disability based protected characteristics that mean they cannot access mixed sex provision. They cannot just let the mess happen, this is very bad practice under the Equality Act.

Could it reasonably be foreseen that there would be a clash of need/rights here?

Yes.

Is it appropriate to hand the mess over to kids and parents, let them slug it out and manage all the fall out and distress involved, and avoid that way having to handle the responsibility of setting boundaries?

No.

#inclusionfail

The outcome of this is that their dd has told the trans girl that we've said no (which we haven't) and therefore are transphobic, so the proverbial is already hitting the fan.

I do think it's better to deal with this directly through the school. Ask them if they are planning to have other mixed-sex groups of three without telling the parents and if not, why not?

Tell them you do not give your consent to your daughter sleeping in a room with a boy. The rest is for them to sort out.

Also tell ask them how they are going to protect girls from accusations of "transphobia" merely for maintaining single-sex boundaries.

I know this isn't easy, but keeping quiet out of fear is exactly why we're in this position now.

Oh food

Your dd will rant she will rage she may even hate you for a while. But she will also at some point also be grateful you took that hit.

Like when you were the only kid who appeared to not be able to be out late at night and go to parties etc.

On the outside you'd ve fuming your parebts said no. You'd say they were old fashioned, boring and didnt understand you. And hated you and didn't want you to have any fun.

But secretly you'd be relieved they said no. Because deep down you didn't want to go anyway and having your parents to blame meant you weren't rhe boring on.

Amd one day when you get much much older. You eventuarealise that you were just being protected from situations you weren't mature enough or aware enough to handle.

Hang in there. It will be for the long haul ..you will be playing yhe long game for 20 years. But you are doing the right thing

The thing is I would not let my 14 year old daughter share a bedroom with one or more people of the male sex at home.

What happens when mixed year groups go away? Older males?

Such a dangerous situation to put female sex teens into. On this occasion it’s just one child. In future it could be more