School trip policies on overnight accommodation for trans children

[foodfiend]

Short version:
School's policy appears to be something long the lines that trans girls can share with girls if the girls are OK with it. Dd (14) is proposing sharing a room with trans girl friend and another girl. We have said we're not happy about this. Dd says that's transphobic.

Long time lurker here - would welcome any relevant experience, especially from any secondary teachers. School trip is this spring, planned since Oct - they've now been asked to submit room share preferences - rooms of 3. Dd is friendly with a trans girl - (since before name change ~ 2 years ago). Dd says A told her that the teacher had told A that they could share with whoever they want 'as long as everyone was OK with it'. (I have now checked with the teacher, and this appears to be correct.) Dd and another girl have agreed to share with A.

DH and I both said, hang on, A is male. It is not appropriate for you to be sleeping in mixed sex bedrooms. Dd says A is not male and we are transphobic.

To be clear - the kid seems perfectly nice and I think this scenario would probably be fine. (No idea what the other girl or her parents think.) But a policy of 'yeah, sure, mixed sex sleeping arrangements are fine if everyone agrees to it' sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And it's unclear whether I'd even know it was happening if I didn't happen to already know that A is trans.

I'm pissed off at being put in this position of having to be the one to point out that this is inappropriate and put a target on my head as 'hateful', or seeming to specifically reject A/A's identity. While Dd professes to be happy/keen on this, it's clear that it would be extremely difficult for a girl in a similar position to say that she wouldn't be happy to share - she'd be terrified of being accused of transphobia. And it seems pretty crummy for A as well to be asked to go round her friends and put them on the spot like this.

It seems like the school is relying on the kids to somehow work it out for them. And that no-one seems to have spotted the obvious risks of setting such a precedent. Will they be equally happy for a trans boy to go in with two boys next time around? Or other male and female students to choose to share mixed bedrooms?

Are any other parents and teachers able to share policies or approaches from their schools?

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

I think he means that transwomen can be exempted from normal male safeguarding rules because there aren't very many of them, so most bad things that happen aren't down to them.

I guess you could say the same about, I don't know, Mazda RX-8 owners?

I base my position on having known quite a lot of trans people throughout my adult life rather than gibbering moral panic and the endless propagation of often-spurious stories. But it is as difficult to argue with anti-trans people as it is to argue with anti-abortion people: the position is entrenched, based on bad faith (or at least misinformation that sounds good) and invariably falls back on absolute worst-case scenarios that hardly ever happen (and when they do are usually due to something other than the existence of a trans person).

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Wreath are you saying what happened at that school is "gibbering moral panic and the endless propagation of often-spurious stories"? Are those girls not important? Are they less important that trans people? And for the love of Mary, Joseph and the wee baby Jesus, can you, for once be specific about where this thread is anti trans? Otherwise posters will interpret your refusal to empathise and show compassion for female victims as anti women. Which I'm sure you are not.

And yes, as previous posters have reminded, safeguarding is about preventing worse case scenario. Literally just that.

invariably falls back on absolute worst-case scenarios that hardly ever happen

Yes! You got there. That is the basis of safeguarding. Understanding how the 'worst-case' scenarios can happen and putting in measures to minimise it happening.

Woohoo! Why don't you think that this is a good thing?

And I am still waiting for those statistics and studies, otherwise, all we have is your weak assurances based on you knowing some trans people. And many of us know some trans people, meaning that you don't have any special insight at all. Just prejudice against people who recognise safeguarding needing to be equally applied with NO special sub group exemptions.

(and when they do are usually due to something other than the existence of a trans person).

And I repeat what another poster asked. You talk about 'gibberish'. What the fuck does this mean?

Wreath confusing “centering women & girls” with being “anti trans” so no surprises there then

But then you’re anti women are you not? I mean women of the biological kind.

You're the one who is insisting that trans people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory than cis people.

Correction
MALES are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory than FEMALES.

This is a FACT.

Safeguarding really cannot be dismissed as moral panic. We are not going to live in a society where everyone lets trans people do whatever they choose, everyone else enables this at their own expense, everyone hopes for the best, and when people get hurt then so as long as they're not trans people we all shrug and go oh well. It's worth it if trans people are happy.

Really, adherents of this political position have to abandon reality in many ways in order to support it. It would be lovely if we could just live in a world where safeguarding wasn't needed, but we don't. Reality goes on existing. And adulting involves facing it.

Incidentally was all safeguarding always moral panic in the first place?

Or is it only moral panic when people say no, we're not removing it because it won't work for these reasons?

I am sorry, I overstepped the mark. I do apologise.

Meanwhile, I have to deal with the reality of this.

• my daughter is in bits because "she doesn't understand how not to hate me now she knows I'm such an awful, exclusionary person" because I've told her that human beings can't change sex.

• no matter what I say, she can't get away from the idea that I'm making a judgement about her friend. Which is exactly why I'm so furious about this - none of this should be being decided as a referendum on some individual child. I wouldn't allow her to share a room with a lovely boy either.

• My intelligent teenager appears to genuinely think that you CAN change sex through operations and hormones (Thanks school. My daughter now apparently knows less about sex and reproduction than she did when she was six.)

This whole approach relies upon everyone pretending that they really believe A is female to protect A's feelings/ and magic away any safeguarding concerns. Anyone else's feelings, and reality, are collateral damage. Meanwhile, A is quite happily looking forward to the trip and to sharing with the girls. The pressure on us, (and on dd of course) to go along with this is immense.

I'm not in a moral panic, I'm just responsible for keeping my child safe, and I do feel a responsibility to stop the school going any further with this crazy approach. If we go along with this, the next parents are going to be told that it's an established approach, it happened this way last time and everything was fine, so the pressure on them will be even stronger.

So sorry you're being put in this position @foodfiend, the school are seriously letting you, your DD and the rest of the students down.

So sorry to hear this foodfiend These children are just collateral to adult groups with their determination to force changes on schools to the detriment of girls.
Have you been able to arrange a meeting to see the Head about this? The fact that the school have handed managing this issue over to children is unforgivable and they need to step up properly. I do think the Head (who may be less captured than other staff as they hopefully are more away of legal liabilities and other complications) needs to be challenged about why safeguarding is being outsourced to children and the consequences of setting a precedent in handing over group management to students.

I'm a bit bothered that A's parents aren't stepping in and doing the right thing-telling A that because of male genetics, it's not possible for A to spend the night with any underage females at the age of 14 in any school adjacent overnight.

This is really on them and the school and I'd be peeved with them. You have been out in a really unfair situation.

no matter what I say, she can't get away from the idea that I'm making a judgement about her friend. Which is exactly why I'm so furious about this - none of this should be being decided as a referendum on some individual child. I wouldn't allow her to share a room with a lovely boy either.
I'm a mom to tween and teen girls. She will get over this eventually as long as you calmly and firmly stick to the right thing to do. Your DD is young teen and lots of changes are still on the horizon. This is just today's problem. Hold fast and use the above argument over and over. Teens really need boundaries and this is a pretty standard teen boundary!

I’m so sorry @foodfiend I’d be furious too.

Oh food

Its so bloody dangerous isn't it.

Sex education was supposed to keep children safe. Give them the words they need to he able to describe things if God forbid anything happened to them. And to give girls especially the opportunity to learn how to deal with periods and birth control so they cab stay In education , not be left dependant on some man. Which is what happened before and still happens in.parts of the world when wonen have no idea or no say about their bodies.

The samaritans was set up because a young teen took her own life after starting her periods and having no idea what was happening to her and was scared.

We have regressed back to these times with all the talk of people with periods amd people with periods, and self declaration trumping biological sex.and teaching u can change sex by saying a few words.

This will not end well. It only works because people like us tell the children the biological reality.

When we die and this generation have to explain to their children , they r truly fucked.

I’m so sorry food, the school have behaved utterly appallingly & are also clearly teaching utter nonsense (stonewall endorsed of course) to their pupils

I'm so sorry @foodfiend - what an absolute shitshow and what an invidious position the school is putting you and your daughter in. If you haven't contacted the Safe Schools Alliance yet, I think it would be really worth you doing so.

They have some very useful resources and template letters which you can adapt.

Obviously that isn't going to help with your daughter but I'm sure she knows deep down inside that A isn't actually a girl and people can't actually change sex. If she's anything like my teenagers, she'll argue with you very defensively and then go away and think about what you've said in her own time.

Our children are being so very badly failed by this gender woo.

You are doing the right thing. Safe schools alliance definitely the right call for support

Foodfiend, that is really awful, the school have behaved appallingly, caused so much damage to all concerned.

I would take this to the govenors and LA as a matter of urgency.

You have been put in a really shitty position. You either maintain safeguarding for your daughter because noone else will, and then you deal with all the fall out. But you keep you daughter safe and you dont set a dangerous precendent for others to follow.

Or, you sanction these sleeping arrangements, knowingly expose your daughter to a clear risk, and make it much harder for the next person to fight this fight.

Is there any way to get an emergency meeting with the governors/LA? Do you have any sense of where other parents are with this?

You're the one who is insisting that trans people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory than cis people.

It might help you with your inability to grasp why there are safeguarding concerns if you consider that most people here don't actually think gender identity means anything at all in this context. It's about sex, not trans status. Male people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory to female people than other female people, it's not a matter of identity. It isn't personal.

Foodfiend, I am so sorry that you are going through this. You are doing the right thing for your child though.

I think if it was me I would offer to “educate myself” together with my DD. Read /watch videos together about what the operations actually do. About the medications they need to take - and side effects. About transitioners and de-transitioners. Read about prisons, als if transwomen should be in women’s prisons. Read the statistics (about 50% of them have a history of sexual assault). And throw some Magdalen Berns videos into the whole thing.

Above all emphasise compassion. For everyone, transwomen and women. And how sometimes there is no solution that makes everyone happy. There need to be third spaces.

Male people are inherently more dangerous and sexually predatory to female people than other female people, it's not a matter of identity. It isn't personal.

This is the absolute crux of the issue. Safeguarding ISN’T personal. The school have created a massive issue by making it personal.

If you talk to the head as an individual parent it's usually a good idea to focus on your own DD and the concerns you have about safeguarding her while she shares a dorm with a teenage transgirl. The school should have done a full risk analysis - they may not be able to tell you all of it but you can ask if they did one and you should expect to be told about anything that concerns your DD. Remind them that you are not able to make any assumptions about whether a 14 year old is sexually active or not. It would be transphobic and homophobic to assume that a transgirl is not attracted to other girls, or that another girl might not be attracted in return. It is daft to assume that 14 year olds never engage in sexual exploration, with or without romantic attachments. One question you can ask about their risk analysis is how the school intend to make sure that there are no extra opportunities for sexual contact - such as, that the transgirl will never be left alone in the dorm with your DD - because of the danger to your DD of sexual contact with someone who as far as you are aware (and of course the school can't tell you otherwise, this is confidential information) may have a functioning set of male sexual and reproductive organs. If they can put their hands on their hearts and tell you they have things organised so this wont be a problem then fine, it's on them.

Then let the school worry about the practicalities and longer term implications of their decision.

If you are worried about the broader ethical issues, potential problems for other girls, and the educational effects of their school policies (or lack of them) it's usually better to go in as a representative of a group of parents rather than an individual parent.

As parents are increasingly having to challenge the removal of single sex spaces in schools that ensure safety and equality for girls (changing, sleeping, showering, sports etc) it's vital that we try as far as possible to separate out the individual child at the centre of this from the core issues.
So address the issues of:
Failure to implement safeguarding practices
Giving children the responsibility rather than the school following their legally mandated procedures for trip organisation and risk assessments
Failing to adopt a professional stance re discussions about this
Prioritising a trans policy (written by external self involved adults) over safeguarding policies

I think it's also okay as an individual parent to just say no. Your own safeguarding does not allow mixed sex sleeping.

I actually want that line drawn also so that my children feel free to befriend a trans child. I think 'if you're my friend you'll undress in front of me', from someone of the opposite sex, would put some children off friendship altogether. Like they're happy being friends with those of different religions, but being pressured into praying with them would be off-putting. Clear boundaries helps promote good relations.