Early childhood transition/gender ID development/socialisation

[MirrorImages]

I've been thinking a lot about the implications of the gender stuff in relation to transitioning children. This is due to knowing a child who has been socially transitioned at a young age (infant school).

What really shocked me in this instance is that said child had no dysphoria about their body, didn't meet the criteria for gender dysphoria, and as neither parent ascribes to gender stereotypes in any other context, hadn't had stereotypes harshly inflicted on them. They simply stated a desire to be the opposite sex and the adults around them rushed to "affirm". (One parent definitely advised by Mermaids.) School immediately "affirming". Child making comments like "I'm a [natal sex] who likes [things associated with opposite sex] ignored for months after transition. Short-term thinking abounds, child happier credited to social transition.

I can't help but think of the many children of my generation - many girls expressing a desire to be boys. Including in my own family. Told you can wear trousers, have short hair, play football. But you're still a girl. Yet what would happen if we had told them they were/could be boys? We're about to find out ...

Because of the socially constructed nature of gender identity, transitioning young children presumably means they start to develop a gender ID of the opposite sex. So a socially transitioned child may be fine with their body but when they reach puberty they are suddenly very different from those in the group they identify with - a sort of induced, rather than innate, gender dysphoria. This seems really obvious to me but I've only just found out there's evidence supporting this (social transition increasing persistence in IDing as opposite sex).

It seems mad. If we wanted to conduct an experiment on the nature/nurture debate of gender roles, it would be deemed wildly unethical to pretend a load of girls were boys or vice versa, to see what difference it made. Yet this experiment is kinda happening (in a "naturally occurring" way). But presumably can't be studied as such ... Yet.

Another thing is that transwomen have experienced male socialisation, often for many years. As often mentioned on these boards. But childhood transition changes this. Is this why the TRAs are so keen on it? What does it mean for say, violent crime tendencies (or not), treating women as humans (or not), for males socialised as female?

And does a so-called trans-girl actually experience female socialisation, or something more akin to male socialisation, being treated as "extra special"?

I'm obviously deeply concerned about the child I mentioned above, but this post is pondering the wider implications of all this ...

I think this sort of thing is basically the result of parents who are very naive, or possibly a bit stupid, simply accepting the idea that affirmation is the appropriate response to even small kids. They probably watched I Am Jazz or something.

Long term I think kids like this just experience fucked-up socialization.

@SantaClawsServiette

I think this sort of thing is basically the result of parents who are very naive, or possibly a bit stupid, simply accepting the idea that affirmation is the appropriate response to even small kids. They probably watched I Am Jazz or something.

Long term I think kids like this just experience fucked-up socialization.

I think this could be said of one parent in this case. But the other was basically GC to begin with and somehow got sucked in. I'm astounded.

Not sure what pp said to get immediately deleted

Anyway. This is about socialisation/how gender ID develops/ implications. Not motivations of TRAs specifically

Interesting post op.

I personally feel that if there is genuine dysphoria then the earlier socialisation begins the better.
Of course how you could ever diagnose dysphoria at such a young age I'm really not sure, I hope that there are cleverer people than me who can.

The nature / nurture thing is something I have given a lot of thought to over the years.

I have a trans child who is now a teenager, we went down the route of affirmation at home and with family, no real socialisation apart from the very occasional day out.
I have wrestled with what to do for best for years and am still not sure that I got it right.

How about we push for fewer gendered toys, clothes, hairstyles, etc. Then a girl wanting short hair will be just a girl wanting short hair; a boy playing with a doll will just be a boy playing with a doll. If there's nothing to transition to and from, children will be able to grow up without confusion as to their gender. Because it's always that, isn't it? Clothes, toys, hair length. Arbitrary stuff.

@EishetChayil

How about we push for fewer gendered toys, clothes, hairstyles, etc. Then a girl wanting short hair will be just a girl wanting short hair; a boy playing with a doll will just be a boy playing with a doll. If there's nothing to transition to and from, children will be able to grow up without confusion as to their gender. Because it's always that, isn't it? Clothes, toys, hair length. Arbitrary stuff.

It would be nice if it was as simple as a choice of clothes, toys, hairstyles etc and I agree it would be great not to have gender labels on these things but for some of these kids it's much more than that.

Our concerns with the Just Be Kind philosophy generally focus on how Being Kind harms the person or group expected to Be Kind. This is an example of how Be Kind is harmful to the people we are expected to Be Kind to. This is how Be Kind is anything but.

How is it kind to promise a child something that they can never have?

Puberty begins a long time before we see visible changes. Boys' minds begin to respond to testosterone very early on. Testosterone influences behaviour, so the male child is going to display stereotypically male behaviour even if they present as and are treated as a girl. Unless they are given puberty blockers to keep them 'girly'. Is it kind to put them on a harmful drug regime that will not only damage them, but also leave them with a juvenile penis which will not provide enough flesh to form a cavity should they want to continue to affirm with surgery?

A male child brought up in the pretence that is a girl can never have the same sort of feminine socialisation as actual girls have. The child's differences have to be constantly monitored and modified. Is it kind to make a child live a lie?

I was what was called a tomboy as a child. I told people I was a boy not that I wanted to be one. Many neighbours thought I was a boy.

Nobody batted an eyelid.

It’s so regressive now, I’d be labelled trans based on stupid
On stereotypes.

There is no clear definition of gender dysphoria, or sound evidence that it exists.

There isn’t a way of isolating that from any number of other things happening in a child’s life, so rushing to label an expressed unhappiness with a gender role, or unhappiness with their body, as something nebulous we now call gender dysphoria, is done on the basis of no evidence.

The only function of the diagnosis is to be able to label children trans and, sometimes, to push the concept of “trutrans”.

I no more believe in gender dysphoria than I believe in “gender identity” or the concept of “trans” as something some people truly are (rather than something they call themselves).

The danger with transitioning an infant school child is that it's such short-term thinking. The differences between physical appearance of young children is miniscule, so any 7 year old will be able to pass as the opposite sex if they have the right haircut and clothes. The problem is that they will go through puberty according to their sex, and it soon becomes clear who is male and who is female, and for the remainder of their life it will be almost impossible to "pass" without significant effort/invasive surgery. Do 7 year olds really get this? I suspect not.

@sharksarecool

The danger with transitioning an infant school child is that it's such short-term thinking. The differences between physical appearance of young children is miniscule, so any 7 year old will be able to pass as the opposite sex if they have the right haircut and clothes. The problem is that they will go through puberty according to their sex, and it soon becomes clear who is male and who is female, and for the remainder of their life it will be almost impossible to "pass" without significant effort/invasive surgery. Do 7 year olds really get this? I suspect not.

A lot of people would use that argument to encourage early intervention, blockers etc.

It's a minefield with a very thin line between protecting or ruining lifes depending on the individual.

@MirrorImages

I've been thinking a lot about the implications of the gender stuff in relation to transitioning children. This is due to knowing a child who has been socially transitioned at a young age (infant school).

What really shocked me in this instance is that said child had no dysphoria about their body, didn't meet the criteria for gender dysphoria, and as neither parent ascribes to gender stereotypes in any other context, hadn't had stereotypes harshly inflicted on them. They simply stated a desire to be the opposite sex and the adults around them rushed to "affirm". (One parent definitely advised by Mermaids.) School immediately "affirming". Child making comments like "I'm a [natal sex] who likes [things associated with opposite sex] ignored for months after transition. Short-term thinking abounds, child happier credited to social transition.

I can't help but think of the many children of my generation - many girls expressing a desire to be boys. Including in my own family. Told you can wear trousers, have short hair, play football. But you're still a girl. Yet what would happen if we had told them they were/could be boys? We're about to find out ...

Because of the socially constructed nature of gender identity, transitioning young children presumably means they start to develop a gender ID of the opposite sex. So a socially transitioned child may be fine with their body but when they reach puberty they are suddenly very different from those in the group they identify with - a sort of induced, rather than innate, gender dysphoria. This seems really obvious to me but I've only just found out there's evidence supporting this (social transition increasing persistence in IDing as opposite sex).

It seems mad. If we wanted to conduct an experiment on the nature/nurture debate of gender roles, it would be deemed wildly unethical to pretend a load of girls were boys or vice versa, to see what difference it made. Yet this experiment is kinda happening (in a "naturally occurring" way). But presumably can't be studied as such ... Yet.

Another thing is that transwomen have experienced male socialisation, often for many years. As often mentioned on these boards. But childhood transition changes this. Is this why the TRAs are so keen on it? What does it mean for say, violent crime tendencies (or not), treating women as humans (or not), for males socialised as female?

And does a so-called trans-girl actually experience female socialisation, or something more akin to male socialisation, being treated as "extra special"?

I'm obviously deeply concerned about the child I mentioned above, but this post is pondering the wider implications of all this ...

Because of the socially constructed nature of gender identity, transitioning young children presumably means they start to develop a gender ID of the opposite sex.

"Presumably" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence, and the thing is you presume wrong, which pretty much invalidates the rest of your argument.
Transitioning children does not make them develop a gender identity of the opposite sex. Look at the case of David Reimer, a natal boy who was raised as a girl after a botched circumcision ruined his penis. His genitals were surgically altered to resemble a girl's at the age of 22 months; he was raised as a girl and never told he'd ever been anything different. According to your argument, he should have developed a female gender identity. But he didn't; he knew he was a boy and was expressing a male identity by the time he was 9 without knowing the reason for it. When he discovered what had been done to him in his teens, he entirely rejected his female identity and began living as male full-time. No amount of "affirmation" or surgical intervention or even lying to him outright about his sex turned that boy into a girl.

But no amount of early intervention, blockers etc will allow a child to pass once they hit the teenage years.

Yes, if they have enough drugs a girl might not grow breasts (but will also be very short, so less likely to pass as a boy). And a boy may develop a micropenis, not get too hairy and be more "feminine" than they would otherwise be. But neither will ever pass fully, and neither will ever change sex. So any child who is affirmed pre-puberty will have to spend the rest of their lives trying to live that lie. They face unlimited drug intervention, and if they wish to pass even superficially they also face much surgery.

No matter how much surgery they have they will never pass for relationship purposes, neither will a girl become a dad or a boy a mum.

Bringing a child up as the opposite sex is encouraging an impossible dream. They are being lied to by the people who love them most, and that surely must have consequences.

There is no clear definition of gender dysphoria, or sound evidence that it exists.

This is not true at all. Gender dysphoria is clearly defined medical diagnosis with specific diagnostic criteria.

Gender dysphoria is clearly defined medical diagnosis with specific diagnostic criteria.

Specific diagnostic criteria which are based mainly on stereotypes.

Here you are blueberry. From www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria (it says it's the DSM-5 criteria, feel free to post another link).

A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

The last two are the only ones that aren't absolute stereotypes. And those should be taken with a pinch of salt with very small children, as they don't know (or at least shouldn't know in any great detail) what exactly physical sex characteristics are for

Also, isn't the suggestion that trans people have gender dysphoria now transphobic?

Treat gender dysphoria with psychotherapy. Surely it's better to do that than pump a child full of hormones and perform surgery to turn their genitals into non-functioning appropriation of the opposite sex's. Surely.

@TurquoiseBaubles

But no amount of early intervention, blockers etc will allow a child to pass once they hit the teenage years.

Yes, if they have enough drugs a girl might not grow breasts (but will also be very short, so less likely to pass as a boy). And a boy may develop a micropenis, not get too hairy and be more "feminine" than they would otherwise be. But neither will ever pass fully, and neither will ever change sex. So any child who is affirmed pre-puberty will have to spend the rest of their lives trying to live that lie. They face unlimited drug intervention, and if they wish to pass even superficially they also face much surgery.

No matter how much surgery they have they will never pass for relationship purposes, neither will a girl become a dad or a boy a mum.

Bringing a child up as the opposite sex is encouraging an impossible dream. They are being lied to by the people who love them most, and that surely must have consequences.

???? What are you talking about. Passing, especially if you start at that age, isn't that hard. It's a big reason why people want to transition younger. It helps a lot with passing. I wouldn't like to call anyone specific to attention on this forum as it would bring a lot of negativity their way, but it's not inconceivable to pass when you transition as a teenager. I know people who pass even when they transitioned at 30, though they are very very very lucky in the genetic department.

For OPs question about socialization. It depends on the person but generally what I've seen is if they transition that young trans girls get socialization as girls. Some, because of the early nature of the transition, might just go completely "stealth" and just live as their assigned gender, not really dealing with the whole thing.

Also, if you want to get out of the dogmatic conversation, the socialization of trans women, transitioned or not, is somewhat interesting. I wish I felt better linking content creators here without worrying about sending a hate mob after them, but it'd be good to show how some smaller people feel about the subject. Sigh.

I personally find the idea of "transitioning" a child to be a bit odd because, well, they're kids. When I was a child I never outright stated that I wanted to be a girl, but I was very gender non conforming and didn't really care for the title either way. I was raised in a very gender neutral household, and so before puberty the whole thing didn't matter very much, and I kind of think that's how it should be. Children are children. If my kid would like to be called she/her I wouldn't make much fuss and I'd call her she/her. If he or she wanted to wear a dress to school I would let he or she wear a dress to school. The only reason not to would be rejection from their peers, which is a factor, but I think it'd be more important to let my child be who they would be. I'd rather teach the world that gender, especially for kids, isn't something that really matters all that much.

No you are wrong.

These kids will never, ever 100% pass. They might at first glance, they might in photographs, they might among a group, they might (with enough surgery) pass most of the time.

None will ever pass as the opposite sex in a relationship. None will ever pass for sex-specific medical treatment.

I'd rather teach the world that gender, especially for kids, isn't something that really matters all that much.

If gender doesn't matter that much, why would anyone feel they needed to be transgender? If gender doesn't matter, everyone should be able to just be themselves, no matter which sex they are.

This last sentence seems to contradict the earlier part of your post where you say that 'passing' as the opposite sex is important. If gender doesn't matter, why would anyone need/want to do that?

@OldCrone

I'd rather teach the world that gender, especially for kids, isn't something that really matters all that much.

If gender doesn't matter that much, why would anyone feel they needed to be transgender? If gender doesn't matter, everyone should be able to just be themselves, no matter which sex they are.

This last sentence seems to contradict the earlier part of your post where you say that 'passing' as the opposite sex is important. If gender doesn't matter, why would anyone need/want to do that?

I'm not sure? I've tried to interrogate why, and I tried to live as the opposite gender, and no matter what I tried I felt viscerally wrong in that mode of being. I'm much happier now and the people who I interact get to enjoy a happier me.

[sigh] - we are back to "what does it mean to live as the opposite gender?"

If there are no gender stereotypes it's not possible to live as "the opposite gender" as there isn't one.

@TurquoiseBaubles

[sigh] - we are back to "what does it mean to live as the opposite gender?"

If there are no gender stereotypes it's not possible to live as "the opposite gender" as there isn't one.

I'm speaking descriptively. The philosophy can be debated until the heat death of the universe, but as I am now people recognize me and treat me as a woman. People think of me as a woman. The people who are attracted to me are attracted to women. People use female pronouns (I do pass) when they meet me. From my closest friends to the people on the street. It's just kinda what's up.

I transitioned because I felt uncomfortable. I now feel comfortable.