Early childhood transition/gender ID development/socialisation

[MirrorImages]

I've been thinking a lot about the implications of the gender stuff in relation to transitioning children. This is due to knowing a child who has been socially transitioned at a young age (infant school).

What really shocked me in this instance is that said child had no dysphoria about their body, didn't meet the criteria for gender dysphoria, and as neither parent ascribes to gender stereotypes in any other context, hadn't had stereotypes harshly inflicted on them. They simply stated a desire to be the opposite sex and the adults around them rushed to "affirm". (One parent definitely advised by Mermaids.) School immediately "affirming". Child making comments like "I'm a [natal sex] who likes [things associated with opposite sex] ignored for months after transition. Short-term thinking abounds, child happier credited to social transition.

I can't help but think of the many children of my generation - many girls expressing a desire to be boys. Including in my own family. Told you can wear trousers, have short hair, play football. But you're still a girl. Yet what would happen if we had told them they were/could be boys? We're about to find out ...

Because of the socially constructed nature of gender identity, transitioning young children presumably means they start to develop a gender ID of the opposite sex. So a socially transitioned child may be fine with their body but when they reach puberty they are suddenly very different from those in the group they identify with - a sort of induced, rather than innate, gender dysphoria. This seems really obvious to me but I've only just found out there's evidence supporting this (social transition increasing persistence in IDing as opposite sex).

It seems mad. If we wanted to conduct an experiment on the nature/nurture debate of gender roles, it would be deemed wildly unethical to pretend a load of girls were boys or vice versa, to see what difference it made. Yet this experiment is kinda happening (in a "naturally occurring" way). But presumably can't be studied as such ... Yet.

Another thing is that transwomen have experienced male socialisation, often for many years. As often mentioned on these boards. But childhood transition changes this. Is this why the TRAs are so keen on it? What does it mean for say, violent crime tendencies (or not), treating women as humans (or not), for males socialised as female?

And does a so-called trans-girl actually experience female socialisation, or something more akin to male socialisation, being treated as "extra special"?

I'm obviously deeply concerned about the child I mentioned above, but this post is pondering the wider implications of all this ...

I wish I felt better linking content creators here without worrying about sending a hate mob after them, but it'd be good to show how some smaller people feel about the subject. Sigh.

You are suggesting that MNers would flame or troll trans content creators?

If trans people create content it's because they want others to view it. Rather presumptious of you to gatekeep it or control who gets to view it.

Argh - I fell for it. Phone call from Bunbury, reminded me to ignore disruptors who try to make the thread all about themselves.

I was a tomboy from 3 onwards. I hated dresses and wanted to hang around with my older brother and his friends. I never played with dolls and much preferred construction toys and didn't care what I looked like. I found it hard to fit in with other girls and gravitated towards boys where friendships were much more straightforward. I thought I would grow a penis when I was older.

I identified with George from the Famous Five, and knew I was a gender non-conforming girl. Thankfully I was allowed to be one, and to wear 'masculine clothing' and have a male-dominated job.

I can see that our society is much less tolerant to gender non-conforming males. It is much harder to be a boy who wants to wear a dress, than a girl in jeans. A lot of the transwomen issues could be solved if men were much more tolerant of gender non-conforming men, and accepted that men in dresses are still 'men' just as women in trousers are women.

I used to think that the boys treated me as one of the guys, but they didn't really. I was allowed to join the gang, but they always knew I was a girl, even if not one of the girly-ones.

In the same way, the transwoman at work goes to the women's group meetings, and uses the women's toilets but I have never met anyone who thought they were just another woman. We are 'kind' but it's not the same experience or relationship.

And does a so-called trans-girl actually experience female socialisation, or something more akin to male socialisation, being treated as "extra special"?

It’s the “extra-special” part that does a lot of damage, I think. I’m always very wary of adults projecting adult sentiments and motivations into children, because it rarely ends well. A common narrative with these children is a sort of pseudo precocity - Jazz Jennings supposedly asking at 2 years when the vagina fairy would come and change his penis to a vagina, 3 year olds saying “God made me with a penis but I don’t think it was supposed fo be that way”.

This projection onto preschool children - who prob just want to play with the glitter and wear a tutu - becomes part of their childhood narrative. You end up with asynchronous development with heightened awareness of sex/gender/sex stereotypes etc and otherwise normal kids doing normal kid stuff. It’s even worse when they end up foisted into an “activist” role with fawning adults giving positive feedback.

Ultimately, though, people lose interest in these children once they grow up. By which point they have destroyed endocrine systems and fertility, if they’ve gone the hormonal pathway.

When adults project adult sentiments or motivations onto their children it never seems to end well. You see it in sport, with primary school aged kids with talent training like adult Olympic hopefuls, or with children who skip multiple years of school and go to uni at 14-15 years. Ross Tucker in his podcast talks of the madness of a 4 year old being chosen for a development football squad and on the podcast people talk of how dangerous it is for children to have their childhoods focused on a singular dream that is very unlikely to happen. In the case of a “trans” primary school aged child the dream will never come true, they will never change sex although I doubt primary school children necessarily realise that.

@abitofadvice1234
To be clear, did you mean to allege that posters on this forum would brigade (by inference, specifically with transphobic content) the TikTok/Patreon/YouTube/Instagram (etc) of any trans woman whose - public - account details were provided?

Or are you - rightly - concerned about the individuals who monitor this sub-forum to ensure linguistic contortionist acts are performed at all times despite the additional burden placed on some members [caused by protected characteristics they hold]? Certainly the (well-documented) [ab]use of social media by TRAs to organise pile-ons not using truly foul language but also making horrifically violent threats might give one pause if you thought mentioning their content here might lead to their being considered in any way guilty of “collaboration”, even by-proxy.

Or were you thinking of linking to trans women creators who, for example, believe they experience getting their period; & think that several posters from here telling them that they don’t (with very clear explanations; some articles; & highly varying degrees of sympathy) would constitute a “hate-mob”?

Many of us here have lived experience of being the victims of abusive behaviour, of being (sometimes physically & brutally) victimised - sometimes by total strangers - due to our [perceived] identities. We are the people who just look at all that female socialisation make support groups, not hate-mobs.

As for thinking gender shouldn’t matter - you do understand that gender-critical feminists are the ones that do not want gender to be thing? That there have been decades of women (& in fairness, some men too) trying to dismantle the utter toxicity that is gender? Which is why there have been campaigns like Let Toys Be Toys & it’s younger sibling (as it were) Let Clothes Be Clothes; & over in the US there’s Ban Bossy - because one of the places male privilege starts is not just being called on more in class but being allowed to talk over girls when they’re speaking. And take over the “fun” bits of group projects. Boys are leaders, girls are bossy - so says gender nonsense, anyway.

Gender shouldn’t matter because it is a socio-culturally & indeed temporally mediated construct. Sex - being real, immutable, & vital to identify correctly at all times throughout any given individual’s life - is what matters & what must, urgently, be given primacy once more.

I agree with the poster above that ‘being kind’ to a young child by allowing social transition is the opposite of kindness, it’s actually cruel.
The questions about the effects of socialisation on child transponders should remain academic, because this hideous experiment on children’s bodies and psyches should be stopped.

Social transitioning allows the child to believe they can become the opposite sex. They can’t.

Tell a boy he can be a girl, and be treated as a girl at home and at school, and he will believe he can grow up to be a woman.

He cannot possibly understand the limitations of medical transition, or the terrible damage it will do to his body. He will not understand that, while early transition will make him look more feminine, it will destroy his fertility and sexual function. And after that irreversible damage has been done, he will be faced with the reality that he can only be a simulacrum of a woman.

‘Trans’ children need to be supported to deal with distress they feel about their sex, not be told the lie that they can change it. They should be told that puberty is not optional, but necessary to develop a healthy adult body, brain, and sexual function.

I feel more and more strongly that transition for children will one day ( hopefully soon) be looked back on with the horror we now feel for medical lobotomies.

With regards to young children passing as the opposite sex, I recently watched a group of girls aged about 8 or 9 playing hockey. They were all wearing the same sports kit, skirts and t shirts, but within a split second I could tell there was something different about an attractive blonde child on one team. They didn't move or run the same or even hold their hockey stick in the same way. I didn't just suspect, I immediately knew what we are not supposed to see.

This was later confirmed by the parent of another child.

Many of these children will have mental health issues when they grow up.

My own mother has a personality disorder. It was only when i grew up and had my own children and saw how people like my in-laws raise their children, I realised how strange my childhood had been and that lot of the views I had been raised it were not actually correct.

I went to counselling and feel a bit better about it now but i think it was the reason I spent my teens, 20s and 30s dealing with anxiety and depression.

I wonder if some of the parents pushing their children into a public activist role have their own issues - and the children will be paying the price later on.

Also, people saying the child has a better chance of passing if the treatment begins early - if this was successful somehow - and later on the person entered into a relationship with a person who genuinely thought they were a woman - is this fair - or deception?

@DrDinosaur

I couldn't agree more. I have a 18 year dc. Claimed to be a ftm from 13. Aggressive agenda from 15. Puberty happened at 11.
Very quiet at 18 when she has been offered full transition services!
We believe she was groomed over the Internet and there was an obsession with certain youtubers. We had the whole enchilada including self harm and 'Glitter friends'.
My deep regret is sending her to a girls school which didn't suit her interests and made her feel she didn't fit in. She was bullied horribly.
She is not particularly masculine, has predominantly female friends but likes comic books and computers.
She has a boyfriend and wants to marry and have babies. If I had agreed to testosterone at 15 she would have been infertile now.
Society does need to be kinder but putting children in boxes and carrying out surgery is not the answer. We have legal adult status for a reason.

@SuperSleepyBaby
'I wonder if some of the parents pushing their children into a public activist role have their own issues - and the children will be paying the price later on'

Sounds plausible, and I would tend to agree.
"I was not allowed to be myself and had controlling parents who did not care about my feelings so I will unconditionally affirm my child in all their choices."

Bringing a child up as the opposite sex is encouraging an impossible dream. They are being lied to by the people who love them most, and that surely must have consequences.

This. The consequences will be a very damaged adult. In the most severe cases they will never recover - mentally or physically.

It’s frightening and ridiculous that in reality it is often parents who won’t affirm who get labelled as abusive/uncaring.

@Thingybob

With regards to young children passing as the opposite sex, I recently watched a group of girls aged about 8 or 9 playing hockey. They were all wearing the same sports kit, skirts and t shirts, but within a split second I could tell there was something different about an attractive blonde child on one team. They didn't move or run the same or even hold their hockey stick in the same way. I didn't just suspect, I immediately knew what we are not supposed to see.

This was later confirmed by the parent of another child.

My son's first Best friend was a little girl who lived down the street. They both developed typically for their sex and you could tell the difference easily from around 12 months.

@savBbunny, I can’t imagine how difficult and worrying it must have been parenting your daughter in the current climate.

I must stress that I have the utmost sympathy for any parent going through this, who I am sure are all doing what they think is the best thing for their children.
On the other hand I have absolute contempt for the doctors involved.

@DrDinosaur

My daughter had one specialist who within 15 minutes of speaking to my daughter offered a referral to a London clinic . He hadn't even seen her as she had turned the camera off. Complete nonsense. He asked no questions other than her preferred name and if she wore mens clothes. Had he bothered to read her notes he would have found she suffered a sexual attack at 12. She suffered selective mutism and PTSD. I had hoped she would have been offered weekly mental health counselling. Fat chance of that! And it is a struggle but she is a kind, friendly person.

There has been a hugely dangerous shift in the narrative. That gender dysphoria is not a mental health condition, so any actions taken to address it aren't medical treatments as such, just some kind of realignment of external features with the gendered soul. So extreme surgery such as bilateral mastectomy, removal of healthy body tissue from young girls and women, has been rebranded.

Removal of healthy body tissue should never be seen as achieving a good medical outcome. There may be some cases where dysphoria is so strong it is warranted, but it should be seen as an absolute last resort.

We should be helping people to live more comfortably in the bodies they were born with, not celebrating lopping bits off.

What really shocked me in this instance is that said child had no dysphoria about their body, didn't meet the criteria for gender dysphoria, and as neither parent ascribes to gender stereotypes in any other context, hadn't had stereotypes harshly inflicted on them. They simply stated a desire to be the opposite sex and the adults around them rushed to "affirm". (One parent definitely advised by Mermaids.)

I haven't rtft yet, just wanted to respond to the op.

I saw exactly this in an sen school I taught at in the late 2010's.

However then, as the child didn't have any issues with their body or even their name they were seen quickly at the Tavistock and supported with flexible ideas around gender (as we had been doing, eg showing him women playing football) and pointed out he was just interested in wearing unusual clothes. As many fashion designers do.

Back then I believe mermaids was a little more sensible too.

The child had no idea about the idea of changing their body until the day an older sibling or young relative explained "being in the wrong body" and the child happily told me, "it's ok, there is a woman trapped in my head and I can have an op when im older."

None of us were affirming, neither was the child or parents. He was getting distressed though as he got older simply because he couldn't understand gender stereotypes. Why couldn't he wear what his female friends did?

He was mildly autistic and had some learning difficulties but otherwise an extremely happy sociable child.

So in the last decade a social contagion has been created by and among adults and imposed on children.

To clarify, the child didn't insist he was a girl at all. Didn't want to change name. Simply wanted to wear what he wanted.

I believe all these things are introduced to children as questions eg, do you think you're a girl? Do you want to change your name? they latch on to.

If they're read stories about trans or watch tv it becomes a reality.

There has been a hugely dangerous shift in the narrative.

They're using science around intersex too.

Some tra scientists are blurring the boundaries and confusing people with it all to believe they are right.

@EishetChayil

Treat gender dysphoria with psychotherapy. Surely it's better to do that than pump a child full of hormones and perform surgery to turn their genitals into non-functioning appropriation of the opposite sex's. Surely.

There's also the entrenched belief that transition is the only option.

There's been a number of people, often women, describing how they live with gender dysphoria but have no desire to fully transition.

The social narrative doesn't allow for that, not glam or special enough,

In terms of social contagion, it's definitely not always parents; it's all society now.

We also have the issue that young people who were teens or in their early 20s in the mid to late 2010s will be becoming teachers and youth or nursery workers. Any that fully believe and subscribe can definitely have impact on young kids perceptions.

There is no other dysphoria, experimentation or exploration that is automatically affirmed and treated as reality. AFAIK the only disconnect from reality that is ever affirmed or treated as reality is religion. And we all know what happens when extremes of religion take over people's lives.

No parents or schools ever suggest to a child whose appetite is low that they are anorexic. Nobody who truly cares for a child's well-being would support the child experimenting with anorexia. Nobody would ever agree with a slender child - anorexic or otherwise - who described themselves as fat.

What is being done to children in the name of this appalling ideology?!

Did anyone see the First Dates episode on Channel 4 the other night?

And I've just noticed on the listings it's repeated tonight at 11, in case anyone wants to see it.

For anyone who hasn't listened to this, here's David Bell (ex of the Gender Identity Clinic) speaking very powerfully about the psychological damage that's being done to children by this ideology. It's very compelling - and deeply distressing.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p09yk7dh