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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher

558 replies

ArabellaScott · 21/01/2022 14:23

Picador are unpublishing - ceasing to distribute - all of Clanchy's books. The article says 'by mutual consent', but it's not a good thing to hear a poet/author being 'cancelled'.

Literature/poetry is not in a healthy state right now.

unherd.com/thepost/picador-cancels-poet-kate-clanchys-books/

In case you missed the brouhaha - Article from last year:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-58151144

OP posts:
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KimikosNightmare · 31/01/2022 13:37

@QueenPeony

It's not that I'm not sorry for her or don't think she's had a hard time. I do not support anyone being vilified, piled on, threatened, abused or any such behaviour and I myself didn't get involved in any way. I accept that she's apologised too.

But I still think this way of describing people was not OK and did IMO arise out of her middle-class sheltered viewpoint - just not realising that expressing every prurient, looks-obsessed or stereotype-informed thought that comes into your head is insensitive and demeaning.

I don't accept that doing that is somehow reflexively pondering on how young people of various ethnicities (including the underprivileged white kids) might be perceived. If someone has that sophisticated an understanding of what they're doing, they would surely be sophisticated enough to see that it very much might not come across like that to others, since it reads exactly as if it's just her own unfiltered assessments on the kids' bodies, faces, weight etc?

I can see why that's been used as an excuse and an attempt to play it down, that's understandable.

I completely agree. Clanchy came at this from the viewpoint of a Victorian anthropologist looking at the natives. In one case the drab Scottish natives compared badly with the exotic London natives.

Having said that I am also concerned at the hyperbolic reaction yesterday on twitter by one of the 3 women of colour to the recent articles about Clanchy.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 31/01/2022 13:40

I don't think the expression of them as if they are simply your thoughts and you think it's OK to dissect people's appearance like that, is OK.

Yep, I'm pretty sure we're agreeing here - it's just that I think the book's tactic is to make the interior monologue unflinchingly explicit, complete with its assumptions and judgements - all the things you wouldn't, and indeed she doesn't, say - in the context of more abstract interrogation of power and prejudice, and I think it works. (Albeit relying on a patient, unalienated, attentive reader.) And you don't. But if we agree that it would be OK in principle, I don't think she should be punished for (debatably) failing.

QueenPeony · 31/01/2022 13:54

I think the book's tactic is to make the interior monologue unflinchingly explicit, complete with its assumptions and judgements - all the things you wouldn't, and indeed she doesn't, say

But if that were the case and she did that deliberately, then her immediate response to the critical review would surely have been to point that out - not deny it?

QueenPeony · 31/01/2022 13:56

I think that is the thing that makes me suspicious. As Kimokos said, it's like she wasn't even aware what a patrician tone she had, so much so that she forgot she even wrote like that.

Whereas if it was all a super-sophisticated deliberate technique, she would have known exactly what the reviewer was talking about and responded on that basis.

QueenPeony · 31/01/2022 13:57

Sorry Kimikos didn't say that exactly but I'm referring to the "Victorian anthropologist" description.

NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 14:01

But if that were the case and she did that deliberately, then her immediate response to the critical review would surely have been to point that out - not deny it?

I think that because the book itself is founded on the principle that it’s all about seeing race and class privilege and ‘what the kids taught me’ she was blindsided to think that anyone could possibly find her racist. So I think that’s why she effectively said “that’s not what I wrote” because she really didn’t recognise the criticism.

KimikosNightmare · 31/01/2022 15:39

@SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl

OK, she is (I think) essentially saying, 'this person had a Jewish name and looked Jewish and therefore I was surprised to learn that he wasn't Jewish'. (Tbf to Clanchy I have simplified it in order to explore the point I'm interested in.) Yes, I think we can all see why that would alienate people. But I have two questions - and they are genuine, good faith questions.

1: She is relying on appearances and stereotypes to draw a conclusion here - but the conclusion is not a value judgement, it is not hostile or linking a physical stereotype to anything derogatory. Obviously it goes without saying that 'he had a Jewish nose and therefore I was surprised that he was generous with his money' would be deeply, deeply offensive. But a lot of our feminism is based on the argument that physical differences do not translate to behaviour, and that noticing someone's real body does not mean that you are making assumptions about their minds, personalities, capabilities, etc. So if this is offensive (and clearly to some people it is, extremely) how do we analyse that offence? Is it recognising that someone embodies a particular stereotype - i.e., the involuntary combination of seeing their real body and being familiar with the stereotype? Is it the idea that noticing that a combination of factors hint at a certain ethnicity must be wrong? Is it different in some way from being surprised that Sven Hogland with his height and blond hair denies any Scandinavian connection? Or that a pupil has dark skin and an Afro and denies any African heritage? Unless we accept that 'Jewish' is a derogatory or imaginary term in itself (which seems to me much worse than what Clanchy is doing here), I would (genuinely) like someone to explain which part of this process is the bit that should be avoided. (And don't say, "she shouldn't care if he's Jewish!" because in context it is clear she doesn't give a damn, except to be curious about how the community at large appears to reject multiculturalism.)

2 (and I think this is the bit that concerns me more, in the context of Clanchy's punishment): OK, let's agree for argument's sake that it was a racist thought process, and move on. So. If we notice prejudice in ourselves, and want to think aloud about how it works and how we combat it, what needs to change? In this example, what should Clanchy do differently? Basically she has four options: a) make sure she does not notice her pupils' physicality; b) make sure she is as unfamiliar as possible with stereotypes and racism; c) lie about what went through her head, and maintain the pretence that it is as easy to defeat prejudice in your thoughts as it is to defeat it in speech; d) never talk about it, and give up on the problem, because it is better to pretend it doesn't exist. If she is not allowed to admit to racism, ever, even in order to analyse it, then isn't she being asked to pretend 'she never sees race, only people'? - that claim which is rightfully lampooned by activists (including feminists, if you replace 'race' with 'sex').

Given that I have only asked questions, and in good faith, it is weird and significant, I think, that I feel so uncomfortable about writing this. There is a huge pressure to pretend (even on an anonymous forum, where the stakes are very low) that when it comes to racism, and social justice, etc etc, you already get it. That your thinking is perfectly enlightened, or at least that when you slip up you are enlightened enough not to labour the point, so that if you don't quite get it you abdicate all responsibility to someone who claims very confidently that they are the authority. All you have to do is shut up and - no, not even #bekind, but #bowdown. Because saying, yes, but why? is stupid or malicious or apologist.*

But that doesn't work. I support Clanchy because she is talking about it, because she is honest, and because her book inspires people (including me) to ask these questions and really want to know the answers. For all those reasons (and others that I won't repeat), it is wrong to punish her.

*(I will not get into the Catch-22 of being told you cannot speak unless you listen to X's experiences, and defer to them, but also that it is definitely not X's job to educate you. It may not be fair, but if X insists they are the only people who can do it - rightly or wrongly - then by definition it is X's job.)

It was beyond irrelevant to know if this boy was Jewish.

If her pupil felt it was relevant to tell her, either directly, or indirectly by exploring Jewish heritage in his own work , then fine, no issues

But , absent that- what on earth was the relevance of Jewish "physicality" to Clanchy?

So far as all the "chocolate coloured skin" - why? I think we can all assume a Somali refugee won't be white.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 31/01/2022 15:48

In context, it is entirely relevant. She is posing the question, "Why do my apparently multicultural kids deny their heritage?" (Whether she is right in her assumptions, whether he actually was Jewish, is in some ways a red herring. It is not racist to be intrigued about how communities address diversity of heritage within them.)

If it were relevant (I think it is, she is using it as one example of a cultural phenomenon that seems significant, you don't, fine) - how would you answer my questions?

NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 16:06

It was beyond irrelevant to know if this boy was Jewish.

If her pupil felt it was relevant to tell her, either directly, or indirectly by exploring Jewish heritage in his own work , then fine, no issues

But , absent that- what on earth was the relevance of Jewish "physicality" to Clanchy?

In the piece she’s pondering why, in this very-close-to-multicultural-London location, none of her pupils seem to have any other cultural or racial identity other than ‘normal, Miss’ (i.e. Essex born & bred look no further). She mentions not only the boy’s physical attributes but also his name as being a typical Jewish surname. She does exactly the same to a pupil with an Irish surname and equates both boys not being interested in claiming any heritage/ancestors as equally perplexing/interesting to her.

So far as all the "chocolate coloured skin" - why? I think we can all assume a Somali refugee won't be white.

In context in the book she’s often describing a multitude of different ethnicities and races and so she’s distinguishing skin colour tones as part of her description. She does the same to the white pupils too. You can argue that the food metaphors and ‘chocolate’ thing is cliched, and problematic, but the mere act of describing the skin tone/colour of a Somali person or an Afghan person isn’t racist in itself. Or is it?

QueenPeony · 31/01/2022 16:23

equates both boys not being interested in claiming any heritage/ancestors as equally perplexing/interesting to her.

I wonder if they wanted her to stop badgering them about it.

NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 16:37

@QueenPeony

equates both boys not being interested in claiming any heritage/ancestors as equally perplexing/interesting to her.

I wonder if they wanted her to stop badgering them about it.

It was just part of a lesson, I believe. An exercise in ‘where do you come from’ is how she describes it, and that it had had different outcomes both in the Scottish school and her inner London school. This Essex school was remarkable in that the exercise didn’t yield anything- that’s why she’s pondering it.

It’s not the case she was picking on a Jewish child about the size of their nose, although I can see that this incident could trigger the accusations of anti-Semitism and in retrospect I’m sure she wishes she’d chosen a different example. No one has (as far as I’ve seen, anyway) thought the kid with the Irish surname was being unfairly stereotyped in this passage though she treats them equally as examples - I understand why the ‘Ashkenazi nose’ is more deeply felt as problematic, of course, and someone should have raised this in editing with her as a potential problem.

KimikosNightmare · 31/01/2022 17:31

@NoSquirrels

It was beyond irrelevant to know if this boy was Jewish.

If her pupil felt it was relevant to tell her, either directly, or indirectly by exploring Jewish heritage in his own work , then fine, no issues

But , absent that- what on earth was the relevance of Jewish "physicality" to Clanchy?

In the piece she’s pondering why, in this very-close-to-multicultural-London location, none of her pupils seem to have any other cultural or racial identity other than ‘normal, Miss’ (i.e. Essex born & bred look no further). She mentions not only the boy’s physical attributes but also his name as being a typical Jewish surname. She does exactly the same to a pupil with an Irish surname and equates both boys not being interested in claiming any heritage/ancestors as equally perplexing/interesting to her.

So far as all the "chocolate coloured skin" - why? I think we can all assume a Somali refugee won't be white.

In context in the book she’s often describing a multitude of different ethnicities and races and so she’s distinguishing skin colour tones as part of her description. She does the same to the white pupils too. You can argue that the food metaphors and ‘chocolate’ thing is cliched, and problematic, but the mere act of describing the skin tone/colour of a Somali person or an Afghan person isn’t racist in itself. Or is it?

I don't buy that at all. The children have no obligation to satisfy her ponderings on her assumptions about what might or might not be their cultural heritage.

As for the need to distinguish "skin colour tones" - yes it is racist in most cases.

I can think of examples where it is relevant such as light skinned Cubans of Spanish descent being prejudiced against dark skinned Cubans of African descent (apparantly that is a thing). But to routinely comment on skin colour? No that is racist.

ArabellaScott · 31/01/2022 17:33

Growing up 'different' can sometimes compel people to obscure, cover up, deny or distract from their heritage. This comes up a couple of times (so far) in the book - in this 'new town' and also when refugees/migrants are careful not to share biographical details, etc. That was the context, as I understood it. I understand that the words used by Clanchy in one of these examples were offensive to some.

OP posts:
KimikosNightmare · 31/01/2022 17:34

An exercise in ‘where do you come from’ is how she describes it, and that it had had different outcomes both in the Scottish school and her inner London school. This Essex school was remarkable in that the exercise didn’t yield anything- that’s why she’s pondering it

Fgs - I can't believe anyone is trying to justify this on the basis of "where do you come from? "

NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 17:38

Here is the beginning and end of the story about the boy with the ‘Somali skull’ and ‘chocolate coloured skin’.

Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher
Kate Clanchy - poet - is 'cancelled' by her publisher
NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 17:58

@KimikosNightmare

An exercise in ‘where do you come from’ is how she describes it, and that it had had different outcomes both in the Scottish school and her inner London school. This Essex school was remarkable in that the exercise didn’t yield anything- that’s why she’s pondering it

Fgs - I can't believe anyone is trying to justify this on the basis of "where do you come from? "

To be clear, I’m not justifying anything, I’m giving context from the book.
SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 31/01/2022 18:33

I wonder if they wanted her to stop badgering them about it.

Good to see that, not having read the book, you're maintaining a determinedly fair-minded approach. Hmm

KimikosNightmare · 31/01/2022 18:35

@QueenPeony

equates both boys not being interested in claiming any heritage/ancestors as equally perplexing/interesting to her.

I wonder if they wanted her to stop badgering them about it.

Yes- it's none of her business. It's 100% up to the children as to how much or how little they want to tell her or how much or how little they want to claim of a heritage.
KimikosNightmare · 31/01/2022 18:39

@SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl

I wonder if they wanted her to stop badgering them about it.

Good to see that, not having read the book, you're maintaining a determinedly fair-minded approach. Hmm

I think that is a reasonable assumption.

It's far more reasonable than Clanchy's assumption that (a) someone looks Ashkenazi or looks Somali and therefore comes with certain cultural baggage and (b) she has the right to quiz them about it.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 31/01/2022 18:40

It's 100% up to the children as to how much or how little they want to tell her or how much or how little they want to claim of a heritage.

Yes. It is. The varying degrees of the pupils' pride in their diverse heritage is also relevant to a discussion of racism and identity within their community.

SelfPortraitWithPterodactyl · 31/01/2022 18:45

Squirrels has already explained the context. I don't think "badgering" is an accurate description of asking a whole class an open question and being tacitly surprised at some of their answers.

Briefly, are you saying that she "should see people, not race"? Or, since that is impossible - given everyone's prejudices - at least pretend?

QueenPeony · 31/01/2022 18:47

Good to see that, not having read the book, you're maintaining a determinedly fair-minded approach

Well I said “i wonder if” because I meant that. It might or might not explain their attitude.

I thought being persistently asked where you’re from was well-known to be a thing that can irritate people in this kind of situation.

NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 18:48

I don’t think you should read the book, Kimiko. It’s basically predicated on her poetry practice with children from diverse backgrounds where the ‘where do you come from’ question is integral to her method of teaching poetry.

So if you don’t like that, you won’t see any value in any of the book at all.

QueenPeony · 31/01/2022 18:50

I think there is a big middle ground between pretending not to notice racial features/differences, and interrogating people and making assumptions about them. Not doing one doesn’t mean you have to do the other.

NoSquirrels · 31/01/2022 18:50

Yes- it's none of her business. It's 100% up to the children as to how much or how little they want to tell her or how much or how little they want to claim of a heritage.

Btw, nowhere in the actual words she wrote des it suggest otherwise. She’s just reflecting on possible reasons for that after the fact, in a book about cultural attitudes to class and race.