Lords Misogyny Amendment

[DisgustedofManchester]

The House of Lords defeated again the government last night, this time on its Police and Crime Bill. One amendment passed was to make misogyny a hate crime which I fully support. Surprisingly, those women Lords who say they defend women's rights by being anti trans, seemed to have voted against the amendment. Very weird.

Not surprising at all. While I might think that crimes against women are due to misogyny, all I see is women being pursued by MRAs, and no action on the vile abuse that comes our way every single day, some of us have no faith that our concerns will be taken seriously by a seriously overstretched police force who have their own misogyny to address.

If they make misogyny a hate crime how long will it be before women are charged for saying trans women are men.

@catzwhiskas

Not surprising at all. While I might think that crimes against women are due to misogyny, all I see is women being pursued by MRAs, and no action on the vile abuse that comes our way every single day, some of us have no faith that our concerns will be taken seriously by a seriously overstretched police force who have their own misogyny to address.

If we refuse to tackle misogyny once and for all how can we be taken seriously as a society to want to stop crimes against women? We do not need patriarchy to be a successful global country. We never did.

I take misogyny extremely seriously. But I think that approximately half the population does not think it’s much of a problem unless it affects men in some way

The amendment was supported by the poeple who didnt want to keep womens prisons sigle sex. That tells us everything we need to know.

Women are being erased in law. Our existing rights were given grudgingly after decades of protest and were only ever on loan. That should worry other groups.

Patriarchy is a hierarchy based on sex, not gender identity.

The Scots govt are trying very hard to make sure that if misogyny gets into law it will mainly serve to punish and repress female people who don't do what male people tell them. They've set up a committee expressly to ensure it works in male favour.

I am quite enjoying the HoC response to this which boils down in essence to 'look, if we start asking the police to stop misogyny they will never get anything else done ever again and we'll criminalise half the male population of the UK and break the courts', while talking earnestly about core brief.

Yes, do the core brief! And ditch all the hate crime muddle. Because either they're right and they really do believe that laws already exist to manage all this, and police have more essential things to do, (so no need for any of the hate crime stuff) OR they don't believe it and ok that they're treating females less favourably on the grounds of that protected characteristics' abuse being beyond all control, too difficult to try and address with any seriousness, and they kind of sympathise with abuse and subordination being the biological birthright of female humans.

While requiring that we try and pretend sex isn't a thing, so as not to distress male people.

I don't particularly want misogyny as a hate crime in the current climate because I think it will end up being used against women.

@Thelnebriati

The amendment was supported by the poeple who didnt want to keep womens prisons sigle sex. That tells us everything we need to know.

Women are being erased in law. Our existing rights were given grudgingly after decades of protest and were only ever on loan. That should worry other groups.

Patriarchy is a hierarchy based on sex, not gender identity.

This ^

I don't support making misogyny a hate crime in the same way I don't support any other hate crime legislation. A crime is a crime, the characteristics of the victim don't make the crime more or less serious.

Can someone explain to me why some women think misogyny shouldn't be a hate crime? My DD has been wanting it to be for a long time and is frustrated that some feminist organizations want to stop it. How does it work that it will be "used against us?"

I tend to agree.
Misogyny doesn’t need to be a hate crime for us to know that women are abused and assaulted because of their sex and in practice what difference will it make? Crimes against women are already woefully under-prosecuted. The TWAW politicians are using this as a fig leaf to cover up their generally lacklustre stance on sex based rights.

So those people who persist in trampling the rights of females to have single sex spaces and to prioritise the rights of males above females who need those spaces to remain single sex will be charged with misogynistic hate crimes then?

No? Didn't think so.

If you cannot define the word woman, you cannot protect women from misogynistic crime. The victim of misogynistic hate crime becomes an open category.

But do crack on with your personal agenda, OP. You might be able to convince some people that males should be protected under laws meant to protect females, against discrimination and hate that females experience because of the female sexed body.

Please don't distract OP from his/her/per other thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4356627-Womens-Wellbeing-in-Prisons?msgid=114062444#114062444

Oh yes.

I see that the threads are similar in derisory tone.

Maybe OP could go back and reply on your own thread on prisons as Purgatory has asked. It is still a very relevant topic as you pointedly stated when you started it.

It is rather poor netiquette to start a thread and not engage…. It means people reading along make all sorts of assumptions about your intentions.

Every time I see the OPs username I just hear DISCUSTANG and it echoes in my head. The echoes fade slowly away as we all sit waiting patiently for the OP to return and engage.

Alas ...

@SunnyDelite

Can someone explain to me why some women think misogyny shouldn't be a hate crime? My DD has been wanting it to be for a long time and is frustrated that some feminist organizations want to stop it. How does it work that it will be "used against us?"

I'm undecided on the issue however to partly answer the question.

Current hate crimes are based on (some) protected characteristics. There isn't a protected characteristic of "women" it is "sex". It means the law is neutral, so in theory if a male is discriminated against because of his sex then he can bring a sex discrimination case. (There are of course exceptions to this eg job roles which are permitted to be advertised to a specific sex)

This means that to make misogyny a hate crime you would need to include sex as one of the pcs under the hate crime legislation. Therefore misandry would also be a hate crime.

I reckon 5 minutes after a feminist talks about male patterns of violence to explain why we need sex segregated spaces she'll be reported for "hate".

I can't think of any members of the House of Lords who are "anti trans" @DisgustedofManchester - please could you expland on that? What have they said/done?

Current hate crimes are based on (some) protected characteristics.

This means that to make misogyny a hate crime you would need to include sex as one of the pcs under the hate crime legislation. Therefore misandry would also be a hate crime.

The current categories for hate crimes are: race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and transgender identity. Transgender identity is not a protected characteristic under the EA2010. If this can be covered, why not misogyny?

Why can't we go the whole hog and add lots more things into the hate crime legislation? If we add enough categories, someone sensible might realise that it is a bad law, which requires repeal. It's currently being weaponised against women, and I can't see that stopping, even with misogyny added.

I can think of a few categories we could add - red hair, skinnyness, clothing/costume, accent, myopia, smell (end discrimination against smelly people!), political beliefs...

The current categories for hate crimes are: race, religion, disability, sexual orientation and transgender identity. Transgender identity is not a protected characteristic under the EA2010. If this can be covered, why not misogyny?

Thanks for pointing that out. I remember when hate laws were first discussed they were based on the PCs. I admit that when reading the current categories I assumed that trans gender identity was incorrectly listed and the legislation references gender reassignment in a similar way gender is listed when they mean sex.

However, I've checked the legislation and it does say gender identity for hate legislation. I do wonder when it changed

And when I mean changed I mean when the debate changed. I'm not implying that the wording of hate crime legislation changed from gender reassignment.

@SunnyDelite

Can someone explain to me why some women think misogyny shouldn't be a hate crime? My DD has been wanting it to be for a long time and is frustrated that some feminist organizations want to stop it. How does it work that it will be "used against us?"

There was a good discussion on woman's hour some time ago and who ever it was did outline good reasons, that I'm afraid I can't remember now.

@ScreamingMeMe

I can't think of any members of the House of Lords who are "anti trans" *@DisgustedofManchester* - please could you expland on that? What have they said/done?

Oh please, at least have some sincerity. Its usually the ones who are against same sex marriage as well.

I am surprised so many are against misogyny laws. Maybe its a generational thing. I know my um says "it didn't do her any harm" but when I asked how she felt if it was happening to her daughter she backtracked. It would be nice to say we do not need hate crime laws but we do. I do not see them as punishement tools as much as cultural change tools. To stop people treating others unfairly or unequally because of who they are whether it be gender, race, nationality or religion. One day hopefully we will not need them though there will always be some bigotry.