Lords Misogyny Amendment

[DisgustedofManchester]

The House of Lords defeated again the government last night, this time on its Police and Crime Bill. One amendment passed was to make misogyny a hate crime which I fully support. Surprisingly, those women Lords who say they defend women's rights by being anti trans, seemed to have voted against the amendment. Very weird.

I think this is very good news and I hope they manage to get it through the House of Commons. I have some reservations about hate crime legislation generally but it's always seemed appalling to me that the other protected characteristics should be covered but not women. And of course it has to be trans inclusive, it's based on perception, and if a trans woman faces misogynistic harassment on the basis that someone views her as a woman then she deserves the same protections as all other women.

Hopefully at least this finally being given a proper airing will focus the minds of both those anonymous trolls who have sent abuse to people like JK Rowling and the gender critical men like Glinner and their misogynist attacks on any women who happens to disagree with them.

@DisgustedofManchester

I am surprised so many are against misogyny laws. Maybe its a generational thing. I know my um says "it didn't do her any harm" but when I asked how she felt if it was happening to her daughter she backtracked. It would be nice to say we do not need hate crime laws but we do. I do not see them as punishement tools as much as cultural change tools. To stop people treating others unfairly or unequally because of who they are whether it be gender, race, nationality or religion. One day hopefully we will not need them though there will always be some bigotry.

I am surprised you're not coming back to your other thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4356627-Womens-Wellbeing-in-Prisons?msgid=114062444#114062444

Its usually the ones who are against same sex marriage as well.

That's interesting, because many of those who argued for the GRA in 2003 were against same sex marriage . Same sex marriage would also have fulfilled the requirements of the ECHR for a male transsexual to be able to marry another man. We didn't have to have a law that created a legal fiction that people can change sex.

I saw (on gettr) that the wonderful Conservative Baroness Sheila Noakes tabled an amendment, asking the House "make sense" of Baroness Newloves's misogyny Bill by removing 'or gender'.

Because the original bill applies 'whether you are born a woman or become one'.

So just adding 'misogyny' to the Hate Crimes legislation, if it includes males within the group 'women', is a heap of sh*t.

gettr.com/post/pp0whr171d

@DisgustedofManchester

I am surprised so many are against misogyny laws. Maybe its a generational thing. I know my um says "it didn't do her any harm" but when I asked how she felt if it was happening to her daughter she backtracked. It would be nice to say we do not need hate crime laws but we do. I do not see them as punishement tools as much as cultural change tools. To stop people treating others unfairly or unequally because of who they are whether it be gender, race, nationality or religion. One day hopefully we will not need them though there will always be some bigotry.

I think you're missing the point.

I'll simplify the points I made earlier. From the HoC decisions on this:

Either the laws to manage misogyny (and therefore all other hate crimes) already exist making additional hate crime work unnecessary

OR

It's important for the police to do their core brief and the hate crime laws are a distraction

OR

misogyny is semi justifiable and being subordinated and illtreated is part of the birthright of being female, plus its so out of control and endemic that the police would end up doing nothing else/it would criminalise half the male population, therefore females should be treated unequally compared to other protected characteristics and this is justifiable too. (See trans activism for details.)

They can't all be true.

So which is it?

If some protected characteristics then all.

If one is too much for the police they are all too much for the police.

Vast amounts of male dominated govt having cake and eating it too here. 2022: the year of ffs stop all the bullshit.

Incidentally:

Points 1 and 2 on that list I would accept as arguable.

Point 3: I have some good old Anglo Saxon in response to that, and it ends in not on my watch mate.

Oh please, at least have some sincerity. Its usually the ones who are against same sex marriage as well.

Oh please just answer the questions put to you for once

This is why many women don't feel making misogyny a 'hate crime' is helpful:

"While superficially appealing, the change would not tackle the central problem, which is the staggering failure of police and prosecutors to enforce existing laws.

Another problem with making misogyny a hate crime is that some people who argue for the change are explicit in saying that protection should apply to trans women — male-bodied individuals who identify as women. They are already covered by existing hate crime legislation, where transgender identity is a protected characteristic, so this seems more like an attempt to change the legal definition of the word ‘woman’ than anything else. What a change in the law would do is open up a new front in the war on gender critical women, who would be the target of vexatious complaints from trans activists."

From the wonderful Joan Smith:

unherd.com/thepost/dont-make-misogyny-a-hate-crime/

If we're going to have hate crime laws then I think misogyny should be one.

I don't think it will work though, because misogyny is so entrenched within our society.

I'm not sure about the perception thing. My suspicion is that genuine hatred towards transwomen (as opposed to disagreement with trans ideology) is caused by homophobia and transphobia.

On the cases where someone really does pass, I still argue their experience is different. They still haven't experienced the crushing combination of female socialisation and structural misogyny, and the knowledge that their rights are always granted and taken at the whim of men. I am a white woman with a foreign name and have experienced racial prejudice several times from people who haven't seen me. Whilst it was unpleasant to know of the existence of racist idiots and was also hurtful and inconvenient, it would be extraordinarily offensive for me to claim that my experience was anything like the experience of a person of colour who received the same treatment. I have the privilege of having grown up white in a country where that bestows advantages on me that I haven't had to work for.

I think a lot of misogyny gets posted on MN under the pretence of standing up for trans rights. Often transphobia too, with this insistence (which I don't believe) that all trans people a) want to bulldoze women's boundaries and b) can't control their behaviour in public.

unherd.com/thepost/dont-make-misogyny-a-hate-crime/

One POV

Basically stonewall are in favour because it's part of their pro trans strategy.

Because it's a Trojan horse.

Cross post conservatives, sorry!

twitter.com/JeanHatchet/status/1483463594591272965?t=FU2PFeFEt4cTz9K9e_RV4w&s=19

Interview with Jean Hatchett on GB news. I agree making misogyny a hate crime is a red herring and will do nothing to change or protect the position of women and lets the gov of the hook.

I now understand why some GC feminists do not want misogyny listed as a hate crime. It would indeed be used against women who supported sex segregated sex and that sex is real - these would be called hate crimes as being misandry/transphobic. Thus it is no surprise that those who do not support single sex prisons do support making misogyny a hate crime.

Racism is racism and has no colour. Being treated in a racist manner because you are white is the same as being treated in a racist manner because you are non-white. Indeed, in some areas of the UK being a white woman not only means you meet racism but also are assumed to be a prostitute.

“If we refuse to tackle misogyny once and for all how can we be taken seriously as a society to want to stop crimes against women? We do not need patriarchy to be a successful global country. We never did.”

We know you don’t actually give a shit about the patriarchy though because you never bloody listen to women.

I don’t know how I feel about hate crime legislation. I thought Scotland’s approach (make everything a hate crime except misogyny) was bizarre. But I’m worried generally about the cost of limiting free speech, as I suspect are those who voted against this. Plus I think this would leave the police massively overwhelmed. We’re 51% of the population and most of us face some form of misogyny on a regular basis!

“I am surprised so many are against misogyny laws. Maybe its a generational thing. I know my um says "it didn't do her any harm" but when I asked how she felt if it was happening to her daughter she backtracked”

Proof that you don’t listen to the women here. Literally no one argues that “it didn’t do me any harm...”.

There was a bit on Politics show just now. Its not so much the government against it, but the Law Commission has apparently produced a very long report with all sorts of technical reasons why this amendment will actually make prosecutions harder. Don't ask me why, too technical. However, consensus is that something needs to be addressed, but not as it is currently being presented by the HoL.

Whilst on air Jess Phillips, as a guest, received a vile and abusive email from a man, calling her a whore etc etc. This is what needs addressing. She has never once got the police to act upon any threatening message she has received, and they are all sex based insults.

@Signalbox

If they make misogyny a hate crime how long will it be before women are charged for saying trans women are men.

Absolutely this. Since GC are now protected by free speech, they are trying to move GC views into hate crimes. Sneaky.

I think misogyny as a hate crime is a red herring. I agree with WPUK and others like Joan Smith who have argued that we don't need new, unenforceable legislation. What we need is for the police and the courts to actually use the legislation we've got to bloody prosecute men who are quite literally getting away with murder right now.
womansplaceuk.org/2021/03/13/misogyny-is-the-problem-hate-crime-legislation-is-not-the-answer/