Screw C4 drama

[SceneDrama]

Prison drama. Trans man inmate storyline. Actor that plays Trans man inmate 'passes' and I doubt anyone would have noticed unless they recognised Riley from East Ender's. I thought this was interesting and wondered whether their trans status would be made an issue or whether Riley would just be allowed to be a male character.

But no. The 'trans' aspect of this character was focussed upon and there was some very, very heavy-handed, clunky, shoe- horned dialogue. A female prison officer lecturing another prison officer about 'gender' and how a male person can be born into 'the wrong body'.Lots of eyerolling towards people struggling to feel comfortable with a female-born person being incarcerated in a male prison.

And the pivotal scene was the character being pumelled by the prison's 'hardman' in a locked prison cell and 'handling' it and therefore being the 'man' they truly were. I think it was supposed to be a 'feel good' moment.

All I thought was that in reality, that transman would have been slaughtered and downed by the first punch from the hard man who was 3 times the size of the Trans man. And I thought - is this really the issue in prisons at the moment? That we shouldn't be discriminatory and should be housing transmen in male prisons?

Aren't we missing the real issue with prisons - that male bodied people are being housed in women's prisons?

And am I missing something here - should we be campaigning for trans men to be housed in men's prisons? Is there a ground swell of opinion for this to happen?

Or is this just obfuscation and a bad, bad, drama? Riley was a great actor BTW but I really wonder whether Riley would truly feel happy about being in a prison cell with the hard man who was three times their size. I doubt that in real life they'd walk away with just a bloodied nose.

@CheeseMmmm

Not seen it.

It's about a transman in a men's prison?

Is that right?

But transmen are always in women's prisons due to the massive risk to them.

????

This.

Script (and acting) total bollox.

Transmen are housed in the women's estate because of the risk of (surprise, surprise) rape. Unfortunately women aren't accorded the same consideration as transmen, and have transwomen housed with them in the women's estate. Where (surprise, surprise) many of them rape and assault the female prisoners they are housed with.

And as others have pointed out, even a bloke wouldn't have got up easily from that beating or escaped without a fractured cheekbone. jaw etc, let alone a transman who has a woman's more fragile bone structure.

I'm still watching it mind - it's so bad it's like stepping back in time to Crossroads.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Patricio Manuel is a trans man boxer who competes and wins against biological males. Those of you insisting it's totally implausible a man could ever beat a woman may be right, but the thing is we're not talking about a woman here, we're talking about a trans man who has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has male pattern strength and musculature. I'm not saying the scene was greatly executed or super realistic or anything, but it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend a trans man on T is no different to a woman.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

a) trans men rarely develop male pattern musculature /strength. Buck Angel is a rarity - an I doubt even s/he has the strength level of a male of similar size/build. It's not merely muscle mass, it's muscle type.

Males have more "fast-twitch" muscle fibres so are generally faster and have higher maximum power output than females. Females are weaker and slower, but have more stamina and recover from effort more quickly.

b) The character does not have a penis. No TiF has a penis, though some have a faux penis constructed from forearm tissue. It isn't a threat to women. Transmen are women, and it is appropriate to house them on the female estate.

Patricio Aquilar was 5 times female national champion before winning their first and only professional fight in the male category , a fight against a male fighter who had never before won a fight in his professional career.

Naked transmen don't pass as men even if they have had 'bottom' surgery.

Even if the character had had a phalloplasty, I would be very surprised if they passed in a male communal shower.

Phalloplasties can't change size like the erections of real penises. They are the same length all the time. So in surgery, flexible metal rods may be inserted into the neophallus. These rods allow the phallus to be bent into the desired position.

Another method is the insertion of a pumping device so the user can inflate the phallus as desired. I doubt any of these would pass muster in a communal shower.

@Apollo441

You know, with numerous programs and films like Buffy and the Marvel movies I think that people have come to believe that women are just as strong as men. As women are less routinely assaulted these days (a very good thing) there is little to remind them of just how vulnerable they are. I truley hope these women live their lives without ever encountering the reality of male physical violence but their naivety is a hindrance to safeguarding women and girls in general and they are useful allies to MRAs..

To be fair to Buffy/Marvel/etc, most of those characters are super powered, they have a supernatural/superscifi reason to be so strong. I think it's more shows like The Americans, which I utterly loved, that showed Elizabeth Jennings, regularly defeating men in hand to hand combat, that are the problem. A regular normal woman can not regularly beat men in fights. Occasionally a woman may get the upper hand through luck, the element of surprise and/or training that allows her to deal a hard blow to a vulnerable body part, but that is so, so far away from the norm that it's unfortunately unhelpful that we see it increasingly often on television.

I'm a small woman but I'm surprisingly strong both through my natural body type and training. I regularly lift weights, often easily, that much bigger reasonably fit women can't budge. I was helping my brother secure some of his work equipment recently and offered to help him move some large rolls of material and he turned me down, saying I wouldn't be able to handle the weight (he wasn't being an arse, just realistic) and I walked over and lifted one end easily with one hand. And helped him put them away without any real strain on me.

I have experienced male strength, both through sports/martial arts sparring and through violence. And it's utterly shocking. Bringing it back to Buffy/Marvel, women essentially walk around in a world full of super-powered beings. And most of us don't realise it at all. We don't and most men don't. When I think too much about how very strong men are compared to us, it's actually terrifying. I don't go through my life afraid of men. I will happily work and play with men. I have male friends that I will hang out alone with, that I trust in my car or my house, etc. But I am also quite wary of just how strong men are and conscious that if another man chooses to attack me, there is so little I can do about it.

Cheesecake thank you for posting an alternative view. It's always interesting to read the arguments against the sex > gender view.

This point earlier:

'Patricio Manuel is a trans man boxer who competes and wins against biological males. Those of you insisting it's totally implausible a man could ever beat a woman may be right, but the thing is we're not talking about a woman here, we're talking about a trans man who has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has male pattern strength and musculature. I'm not saying the scene was greatly executed or super realistic or anything, but it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend a trans man on T is no different to a woman.'

1. Testosterone has been used on female athletes in the past, most are aware of E Germany doping.

The female (and male) competitors who were given steroids containing testosterone. And this was E Germany, some told vitamins, some suspected, some knew was doping but... Saying no? Asking questions?? Not a brilliant idea.

I'm sure you know all this but still worth posting in case others don't.

Many women (and men) had life long impact due to being given these drugs.

'The victims all received Oral-Turinabol - an anabolic steroid containing testosterone made by Jenapharm. The "blue bean" had astonishing powers - accelerating muscle build-up and boosting recovery times - but its subsequent side effects were catastrophic: infertility among women, embarrassing hair growth, breast cancer, heart problems and testicular cancer. An estimated 800 athletes developed serious ailments.'

1. Back to individuals v groups. An ongoing problem as when such different angles behind thoughts, talking about different things in these discussions.

NO ONE has ever said that all males will always best any females when it's something physical.

At elite level sport can't see female prevailing. Best in world competition.

Other than that?

Occasionally exceptional female + Testosterone Vs male off game/not as experienced or skilled/poor defence etc female prevails. Obv not IMPOSSIBLE.

This individual just googled. Awesome record fighting in women's competition. Came out TM, 2018 professional debut. Has competed ONCE. Since '18.

You said competes and wins against men. Do you have info about the other bouts please? Because once is. Well. Not what you said.

'male pattern strength and musculature'

Have you seen many boxers hands? In person, with general people about?

Our local boxer who got really far. Before he was in a fight where he received life threatening injuries. Blood clot on brain from damage earlier in fight. Nearly died ringside.

Anyway. He has fucking MASSIVE hands! See him on high street always have. Everyone knows him. Bantamweight. Tiny short fella. With huge upper body and just disproportionately huge hands.

Bloke I knew vv handy in a fight. Great big hands.

Obviously really. Bigger surface area to deliver and absorb power of punch. Stronger wrists. Etc.

Do hands grow on T? Do the bones in our skull jaw etc grow thicker? Shoulder bones grow to broaden?

Answer is obviously NO. female on T is not the same as male. They are female on T. Factual. Essentially physically become as male when take T? Nope.

1. Think about the implications of what you say.

If female adult or adolescent takes T, then becomes on much more level playing field if fight male.

Obviously. (Obviously right?). There are MASSIVE reasons that would be very appealing to female people. (Can't use women girls as need to be specific here).

Massive reasons to find that incredibly appealing. So appealing as to try and find how to get relevant treatment/drugs.

I'm sure I don't need to spell it out to anyone why significant numbers would want that.

So cheeze, have you thought about that? Crossed your mind?

If not. Or if have. What's your opinion on that clear consequence?

Is it sponsored by Stonewall?

According to Sharon Davies, who was robbed of a gold medal by East German female swimmers on testosterone, there is no way to make it fair as the difference between males and females can't even be eliminated by female athletes take testosterone at male levels.
mobile.twitter.com/sharrond62/with_replies

I keep seeing people say that women just aren't trying. And the number of women who think they'll end up looking like a body builder if they lift the odd 2kg weight now and again.

I participate in a number of sports. Men who are shorter than I am are slender at 20kg heavier (low as my body fat is, theirs is much lower and they have a lot more muscle mass and are far stronger).

We have very different body compositions, even down to the muscle fibres and our bone density.

Yes and when we're all dead in the ground for many years it's still possible to see humans are sexually dimorphic. We always have been and always will be. We haven't evolved to be a sexual spectrum.