Screw C4 drama

[SceneDrama]

Prison drama. Trans man inmate storyline. Actor that plays Trans man inmate 'passes' and I doubt anyone would have noticed unless they recognised Riley from East Ender's. I thought this was interesting and wondered whether their trans status would be made an issue or whether Riley would just be allowed to be a male character.

But no. The 'trans' aspect of this character was focussed upon and there was some very, very heavy-handed, clunky, shoe- horned dialogue. A female prison officer lecturing another prison officer about 'gender' and how a male person can be born into 'the wrong body'.Lots of eyerolling towards people struggling to feel comfortable with a female-born person being incarcerated in a male prison.

And the pivotal scene was the character being pumelled by the prison's 'hardman' in a locked prison cell and 'handling' it and therefore being the 'man' they truly were. I think it was supposed to be a 'feel good' moment.

All I thought was that in reality, that transman would have been slaughtered and downed by the first punch from the hard man who was 3 times the size of the Trans man. And I thought - is this really the issue in prisons at the moment? That we shouldn't be discriminatory and should be housing transmen in male prisons?

Aren't we missing the real issue with prisons - that male bodied people are being housed in women's prisons?

And am I missing something here - should we be campaigning for trans men to be housed in men's prisons? Is there a ground swell of opinion for this to happen?

Or is this just obfuscation and a bad, bad, drama? Riley was a great actor BTW but I really wonder whether Riley would truly feel happy about being in a prison cell with the hard man who was three times their size. I doubt that in real life they'd walk away with just a bloodied nose.

I have been looking for a thread about this show on here and on other sites, but the title of the show makes google searches difficult as you can imagine so I'm glad to see it talked about here at least.

The propaganda started years ago, with sweet and gentle Hayley Cropper. Hence the prevailing view in society that transwomen could never be violent AGPs and fetishists

Who at the time was lionized by the LGBTQ community

Julie Hesmondhalgh would be vilified now

It was utterly brutal. Was the message supposed to be that a man can punch and kick a woman including three times to the head and she'll be fine? Is it woke for a man to write a drama where it's supposed to be positive, acceptable and progressive for a woman to be savagely beaten by a man if she provoked him? Screw all the women who know what the reality of that actually is. Who cares about upsetting women who have been beaten by men, gender feels are so much more important than the reality of women's broken skulls from a man's fist.

I think they were trying to make the case for transgender inmates being placed in the prison of their self-identified 'gender'. To do that, they had to do something preposterous - which was to gaslight the audience into thinking that yes, a trans man can hold their own against the most violent, huge, hulk of a male inmate with fists the size of dinner plates - and therefore that the best place for any trans male offender is in a male prison.

Let's ignore the fact that the first punch that that hulk of a man threw should have at least broken their jaw or rendered them unconscious - this wasn't just an averagely built man - he was HUGE. And he wasn't holding back because he knew that the trans man had transitioned from a woman because that fact wasn't known to anyone, not even the staff until about half an hour earlier (another completely ridiculous scenario)

It was an insult to the audience's intelligence on many fronts.

Patricio Manuel is a trans man boxer who competes and wins against biological males. Those of you insisting it's totally implausible a man could ever beat a woman may be right, but the thing is we're not talking about a woman here, we're talking about a trans man who has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has male pattern strength and musculature. I'm not saying the scene was greatly executed or super realistic or anything, but it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend a trans man on T is no different to a woman.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

There was a thread over Christmas (subsequently deleted) where a woman asserted that she was able to punch as strongly, if not stronger as 80-90% of men. She admitted to being a small woman but was still completely confident that her punching strength would be comparable. She was not a trained fighter of any sort. Bonkers. I truly hope she's never in a position to find out how big the strength difference is in reality, even against small men who look 'harmless'.

I was punched, square in the jaw, by a boy when we were both 16. He was very skinny and only a few inches taller than me. Put it this way, I’ve spent the rest of my life being very aware and avoidant of male violence.

Only a woman who had not been on the receiving end of male violence could even fleetingly think she would stand a chance up against a man. Lucky her!

@BlueberryCheezecake

Patricio Manuel is a trans man boxer who competes and wins against biological males. Those of you insisting it's totally implausible a man could ever beat a woman may be right, but the thing is we're not talking about a woman here, we're talking about a trans man who has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has male pattern strength and musculature. I'm not saying the scene was greatly executed or super realistic or anything, but it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend a trans man on T is no different to a woman.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

Oh wow! What an extensive fighting history. All those men beaten to a pulp.

I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?
Third spaces please!!!!

This is a fucking ghastly concept. If feminine presenting males are in danger in male prisons, what the fuck would happen to actual females in a male prison?

I am so fucking fucking fucked off by this pish.

@BlueberryCheezecake

Patricio Manuel is a trans man boxer who competes and wins against biological males. Those of you insisting it's totally implausible a man could ever beat a woman may be right, but the thing is we're not talking about a woman here, we're talking about a trans man who has been taking testosterone for years and therefore has male pattern strength and musculature. I'm not saying the scene was greatly executed or super realistic or anything, but it's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend a trans man on T is no different to a woman.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

It's definitely not impossible for a woman to beat a man but they will tend to be extreme outliers. The vast majority of women, even at the elite level, will struggle to beat a man. The poster I recalled above was asked specifically if they were trained in a fighting sport which they confirmed they weren't. An elite female athlete in a sport like MMA has a chance, if going in the ring against an amateur and inexperienced man. Even that is rare.

The outliers do not disprove the point that the vast majority of men and stronger than the vast majority of women.

Patricio Manuel is in the outlier category and on a performance enhancing drug (testosterone). Prior to transitioning Patricio was a five-time national amateur champion, as well as competing in the 2012 Women's U.S. Olympics Trials. So a very talented and experienced female boxer. Patricio stepped into the ring as a man for one match against a winless opponent (Hugo Aguilar). So a very experienced boxer, on testosterone, fighting agains a super featherweight male who appears not to have won a single fight in their boxing career to date. In this instance, skill and experience would be a massive advantage.

I'm not sure what you mean by "wins" in the plural as Patricio seems to have not returned to the ring since the match against Hugo in 2018.

Those of you complaining the Riley character shouldn't be in the male estate - since he passes completely, including in the showers, he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

Transmen are biological women. Women don't have penises.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

There was a thread over Christmas (subsequently deleted) where a woman asserted that she was able to punch as strongly, if not stronger as 80-90% of men. She admitted to being a small woman but was still completely confident that her punching strength would be comparable. She was not a trained fighter of any sort. Bonkers. I truly hope she's never in a position to find out how big the strength difference is in reality, even against small men who look 'harmless'.

I was punched, square in the jaw, by a boy when we were both 16. He was very skinny and only a few inches taller than me. Put it this way, I’ve spent the rest of my life being very aware and avoidant of male violence.

Only a woman who had not been on the receiving end of male violence could even fleetingly think she would stand a chance up against a man. Lucky her!

I was lucky enough to be slapped by my father when I was about 16. Sounds masochistic, but let me explain. I was your absolutely classic troubled teenager; my parents had divorced when I was 9, my father had assumed custody after my mother's valiant attempts to be our full-time carer proved too much for her (she was very psychologically fragile and suffered from extremely bad, and extremely frequent, epilepsy, for which she needed regular hospitalisation), and I always unfairly blamed him for that separation. Growing up lesbian in the 70s was no picnic either, and all of these and other grievances I heaped at the feet of my poor old, long-suffering Dad, who nonetheless loved the bones of me. To cut a long story short, after coming home half drunk and starting an argument I punched him in the face (an act that makes me crawl with shame even now, 45 years later). I was an extremely athletic teenager, 5ft 6, a fixture in the hockey team, Javelin thrower and I'd also done a year of Judo. My Dad was only two inches taller and a paunchy 50yr old who'd never exercised intentionally in his life. He took a long sorrowful look and slapped me back, just from the forearm, using no shoulder and putting no body weight behind it at all.I think you can probably guess how shocked I was at the difference in effect of the two assaults. After we'd both stopped crying, and he'd stopped apologising and explaining why he'd done it, he spent several hours making me promise over and over never to hit a man again. He was terrified for me. I didn't need any more convincing. No doubt these days I would have been removed from the house and taken into care, but I genuinely to this day believe it hurt him more than it hurt me. I absolutely would not recommend his methods of instruction, but I have never forgotten that extremely painful lesson.

Somewhere around those tweets by the criminologist (who is being investigated for “transphobia” atm) a transman wrote that they would want to be in a men’s prison if they are in that situation. There were obviously a lot of people explaining that they really really would not.

While I was sympathetic to the character, I found the whole thing quite bizarre, the moral seemed to be that because Troy was ok after a fight with an extremely muscular man (? - I genuinely couldn't tell if it was supposed to be part of the storyline that the opponent was going easy on Troy or somehow only pretending to fight him?? Because no way would anyone not at peak muscle be walking away from that fight if it was a real aggressive fight) and - one of the officers actually said that proved he was a man?

The absolute state of that thinking. No wonder male violence is so high.

The strength thing is interesting.

I knew from my brother when he started puberty when I was maybe 13 about the strength differential.

When one of our occasional bickering shoving fights he pushed me and we were both shocked when I went flying across room. Unspoken agreement never did again. Just shouted

Also from going to pubs clubs from 16. None of these incidents anything other than fun/trivial.

Some blokes carrying me (both thought hilarious). Sometimes when a bloke picks you up and moves you (annoying).

Once in pub random bloke picked me up and put me behind him. I opened mouth to say wtf, glass smashes near me and never seen anything like it whole pub about 2k people all tightly packed in huge bar area started full on fighting. I said thanks to him, obv! He stood in front blocking flying debris, holding off pushing from surging crowds. What a great bloke. Could I have held off surging crowds? Nah squished.

So I knew...

But I didn't KNOW. It was theoretical iyswim.

I was watching this tonight. There’s no way a female would be placed in a male prison (or want to be there, apart from in a tv drama or Twitter fantasist). There’s also no way that the other inmates wouldn’t know - even if this person has a “penis”, it would be constructed using an arm or leg skin graft that would leave very noticeable scars (along with scars from a double mastectomy).

The whole “born in the wrong body” schtick was abysmal.

It is insulting to men & women to pretend that a penis or vagina can be constructed from other body parts, and be indistinguishable from the “real thing”.

I can only guess at what C4’s agenda is with this storyline (of course I know the agenda, which is to normalise the idea of men in women’s prisons by making it seem like women can safely be in male prisons).

What a bizarre storyline! Did they say beginning/end that TM here don't go into male prison because of the risk to them?

How many TM even are in prison? I mean how often does this come up? And that the TM has gone through full hormonal surgical transition? (I assume I mean that must have been story obv..?).

And also 100% pass even in v close living with bunch of men, sharing showers, maybe cell?

Pass in terms of face, voice. Body... All considered together by others instinctively including height, shoulder width, hips?, hand foot size, walk, stance etc.

And I mean what about loads of massive stuff like-
Total impeccable knowledge and execution of all male rules of interaction. Including v subtle.
Natural automatic reaction to surprise, fear, distress, humour (smile laugh snort etc), a fright, I mean...

I just can't see how even a brilliant actor could keep that up for hours every day.

The doc who did physical exam had no idea female?

With double mastectomy scars?
With the massive trauma aftermath of cutting a massive really deep piece of flesh out of arm/thigh?

Is that right that doc didn't realise on exam or I misunderstood?

What about their medical history, issues could arise because of female parts remaining and/or removed?

The obvious take away is that TM should not go in with men in prison. Solution needed let's get onto MP etc.

Some viewers take away will be violence in prison awful need to sort that out.

I think can guess what intended message was as we all can.

Well indeed, the way the script was written nobody on the prison staff knew, because “they didn’t need to” and the other prisoners could tell because he had a penis (or along those lines). Pure propaganda, pretending that there wouldn’t be (a) a massive safeguarding issue (b) no visible scars from surgery.

To be fair, the actor passes pretty well, in the way transmen do (as slightly short, soft-looking men) - although obvs that’s only on the screen rather than “real life”.

I suspect we’re then meant to believe/assume that TW prisoners would pass in the same way (when we hear about those nasty women trying to keep prisons single sex).

Isn't it well accepted, though, that transmen pass as male much better than transwomen as women? (It is easier to coarsen something than to refine it..)

Social context is important too.

I don't pay that much attention to people sitting near me on the bus, or people in the supermarket, and so on. I've got far too much to get on without staring at apparent young men to confirm they are male!

But prison is very different. A female adult incarcerated in a men's prison isn't just passing through, they're the new kid in a completely closed community.

Worse than that, there is very little physical privacy in prison. There are still prisons where you have to 'slop out' - that is, you have a chamberpot in your shared cell and you empty it out when cell doors are unlocked. Your cellmate is going to notice the lack of penis. There is also the issue of communal prison showers. The only way to avoid this is if the transman is given a single cell and special privileges concerning showering and so on, and the other prisoners will certainly notice that and ponder why.

he presumably has a penis. I thought you didn't want penises in the women's estate? So where precisely would you like to put him?

A slice of forearm that has been sewn onto the front of the vulva is not a penis.
A neo-penis can't get hard, nor can it impregnate anyone.
A transmen with a facsimile of a penis is welcome in women's spaces if needs must, because they're female (exceptions apply). However third spaces are preferable.

In reality I think a trans man who really passed and had had full surgery etc

Would in prison estate be best somewhere not at risk from men, but not with women as rubbish for them and tbh the TM.

Given intact males are in women's estate, sure would go in there.

Fact is the program sounds like no link to reality in any way.

Realistically, TM in UK full surgery going to v few.

TM are female. Irrespective of I've read possible slight uptick crime. And definitely not a certain Google if interested. Still vvv less likely to be sent prison.

So it's a prog that is unrelated to RL here now. Why? Obvious to me!

Pure propaganda. And it works. Although a colleague and I have been discussing with other colleagues about the impact of males in women's spaces, including prisons and sport, when I mentioned my fury at males being placed in women's prison at work yesterday, my male colleague said 'oh there was a transman in a men's in a drama. Seemed to work out alright for him.' I had to inform him that it's actually deemed too dangerous and doesn't happen. Critical thinking just seems to fly out the window with this brainwashing.

My mum often tells me about things she sees in a TV drama as if they were real. I can entirely believe Screw has had that effect on some viewers.

For those who didn't watch it, the transman storyline was a major strand in one episode and a minor strand in another episode. It wasn't the main focus of the series. The man who created the series and wrote some/all of it used to work in prison education, apparently, so should have known better.