Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Flip

1 2

Original poster

School yearbook is including pronouns!

29 replies

MsFogi · 11/01/2022 21:57

I have just received the form to pay for dc's yearbook (end of secondary school). It states that pronouns used will be those that are in the school's records. Whilst I can see that the school is in a bit of a difficult place here I am concerned that teenagers who are potentially going through a phase (that is very fashionable now - it seems about 75% of the children use 'pronouns' that don't match their sex in my dc's school) this will be forever captured in their yearbook. I don't know if they are intending to state pronouns next to each name or if they are talking about where they use he/she/they/ze in the individual write ups. Fellow GC MNers - do any of you think I should be concerned/raise this with the school? If so, any steer on this would be great (equally it may be that this is not one to challenge - I have no doubt their heart sinks whenever they get an email from me ).

OP posts:

EarthSight · 11/01/2022 22:07

If they start asking for individual pronouns, she should say that she does not consent to the school listing her pronouns in the yearbook like this. If they do, she will consider it misgendering as they have not had confirmation from her as to what she feels like on the inside, nor have they received consent to publish it.

Say that seeing her pronouns in print like this is incredibly triggering and forces her to out herself in public.

I wonder what they would say to that......

Original poster

MsFogi · 11/01/2022 22:19

Just to clarify - my dc isn't bothered about this. It is more that I have read the letter and wonder whether I should be bothered about it (not for my dc but for all the students who will appear in the year book - so potentially Sarah identifies as Ze/Zim this term and her write up states "Sarah is a fantastic student, ze has achieved blah blah blah..". Roll forward 20 years and Sarah has reverted to she/her, is a politician/has a high profile career however this yearbook (ze/zim) would effectively be part of their public 'record'. I don't feel comfortable with children's 'phases' being stuck with them for life (given that for the vast majority I suspect these ever-changing pronoun choices will be a phase).

OP posts:

GoodieMoomin · 11/01/2022 22:20

Sounds like an absolute minefield! Not to mention silly!

Does the school hold this on file already (GDPR issue?)? If not, are they planning to derive it from a sex or gender marker they already have on record, or ask the kids individually? What's the delay between the cutoff for capturing preferences and going to print?

I think this is going to cause the school a lot of problems

Original poster

MsFogi · 11/01/2022 22:27

I should have also asked if anyone can share what their schools have done.
GoodieMoomin to answer your question I am assuming what they mean is that they'll use what they have on record rather than ask students individually. What I am not clear about is whether they propose to state preferred pronouns next to each name or just which pronouns they'll use in the write up. Any arguments around stating pronouns next to each and every name would be very gratefully received!

OP posts:

GoodieMoomin · 11/01/2022 23:01

I was wondering aloud from a GDPR perspective. How can they add the pronouns without asking what the are? Have they asked before and stored it on file or are they planning to derive it from a sex/gender marker already on each kid's file? So if F then she/her. It sounds like they haven't thought it through and don't fully understand gender identity theory.

If they've got a sex or gender listed for each kid on file (sounds like the case) then I expect they'll be deriving the pronouns from that. They will be open to criticism from the kids if they get it wrong - we're always told that you can't assume pronouns and that's what it sounds like they're doing. In gender identity theory appearance, identity, pronouns etc don't have to be congruent.

Sorry, that doesn't answer your questions, I'm just musing about the many ways this is likely to blow up in their [the school's] face.

I'm sure someone more helpful will be along soon!

donquixotedelamancha · 12/01/2022 00:24

It states that pronouns used will be those that are in the school's records.

I would assume that means the school are just using accurate (sex based) pronouns since there is no way they should have anything else recorded.

Presumably it's a disclaimer to avoid kids wanting to argue about it.

Enough4me · 12/01/2022 01:14

Parents may be shocked to find their son Mohammed is a she/her and daughter Mary is a ze/zer.

Perhaps it will be an eye opener for the ideology in schools?

Snugglepumpkin · 12/01/2022 05:09

I wonder how the school feels this fits with the whole 'keep it secret from the parents' thing as they will be outing every child in the school year to every parent of every child.
Therefore any parent could then contact another parent to say "Did you know your child is using the pronouns of the opposite sex?" because of the school publishing it.

Do they have permission to wilfully, in their view put these young people at risk?
They do after all argue that is one of the reasons why they don't share this information with parents in the first place.

Oblomov22 · 12/01/2022 05:52

This is so sad. That this has infiltrated down to primary leavers yearbook. How sad.

NancyDrawed · 12/01/2022 06:43

I think this is a really bad idea (but I disagree with socially transitioning children anyway).

A child in my dc's year at school went from she to they to he during the last year. What is the school going to do about the children who are 'she' when the book goes to print and 'they or he' by the time they get it back?

SeeMyLanyardAndWeepBitch · 12/01/2022 06:56

it seems about 75% of the children use 'pronouns' that don't match their sex in my dc's school

I take it you must live in Brighton.

Whatwouldscullydo · 12/01/2022 07:31

If its " safe" to out kids this way why on earth are they listening to all the "taining" that says to do it behinds backs?

Which is it?. The Kids are so oppressed amd In danger you must flout parental rights and ignore safeguarding amd have adults keeping secrets.

Or they are all fine and we can out them in a year book?

I'm.confused

supercritter · 12/01/2022 08:42

Safe schools alliance might help

Linguini · 12/01/2022 08:45

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Linguini · 12/01/2022 08:48

drawing attention to the fact that some children are trans
Sorry, correction, they're drawing attention to the specific children who are trans. We don't want specific children to get too much attention do we? Surely that's transphobic

KittenKong · 12/01/2022 08:50

Does the school not have any work to do? I’d hate to be in charge of that (oh the drama of you get one wrong).

So the school ‘holds’ this info? I’d be asking them when this was taken, and why.

It’s easier enough to skate around it ‘Betty is in the chess team. They like to skate. Betty is a keen writer and wants to be a professional ice skater…’. As long as they aren’t planning on having the pronouns written under the photos/name

Betty Smith
He/she/they (yes I have seen this)

Enough4me · 12/01/2022 09:00

Betty must be a very bored and annoying DC, all pronouns would need to be referenced if in doubt.

Imagine a DC describing Betty to someone, "Betty is over soon, can he-she-they stay for lunch?"

hallouminatus · 12/01/2022 09:42

they're drawing attention to the specific children who are trans.

Not so much if it's the majority that use pronouns that don't match their sex.

it seems about 75% of the children use 'pronouns' that don't match their sex in my dc's school

Also ... 75%!?

I've been working in a UK secondary school for the last 15 years and have never encountered a pupil here indentifying as transgender or non-binary, or using pronouns that don't match their sex. I'm guessing (but correct me if I'm wrong) that of the 75%, most don't actually identify as trans or non-binary, and that the pronoun business is explicitly acknowledged as a fashion thing.

My school is clearly not up to date with the current fashion - we've never done yearbooks either (I thought that was just a weird US custom).

Enough4me · 12/01/2022 18:33

What happens when it's published and distributed and Betty has a meltdown as it says she/him/they instead of zhe/zhim?

School is threatened with legal action, as of course the wrong pronouns were used...hate crime innit?

KittenKong · 12/01/2022 19:15

I’d done my share of producing documents with various contributors and editors and believe me, it’s a bloody nightmare at the best of times.

With shifting goalposts like this, I’d go mad.

Because yes, if they are using pronouns they have on record (what, they have at some point asked?) there will be some smart Alec who announced that he is actually ‘she/her’ on the day to have a laugh with his pals. The school then gets a very irate call from his mum saying that the school should have known he was having a laugh (and must therefore reprint the whole book) - or worse still, excitedly demanding that ‘Sandra’ is now addressed as such and a special assembly must be held to introduce the new girl to class (while Alex starts packing his bags and looking up one way flights to Tasmania).

VelvetChairGirl · 12/01/2022 19:25

Steering the children, personally I would complain or find another school. my kids school didnt even teach them about periods so this is stupid when they are not even teaching them about biology properly

FitAt50 · 12/01/2022 19:30

Kids are all fine with this kind of stuff - us the oldies who are up in arms. Hopefully its becoming a better world for all.

Riverlee · 12/01/2022 19:47

I can honestly say, I have never heard of Ze etc until this thread, and had to look it up. Thought it was a typo at first.

KittenKong · 12/01/2022 20:17

Wait until I tell you about bun/bunself…

OnceuponaRainbow18 · 12/01/2022 20:18

75%? Are you sure?

In my school of 2000 I know 4 kids

Flip

1 2