Fucking double standards of women on maternity leave

[ShirleyPhallus]

This is sort of a TAAT but I’ve seen many of these recently

Really sick of the threads on here about maternity leave and how women shouldn’t go for jobs if they are newly pregnant as it could leave a business in the lurch to recruit their replacement. While I have some sympathy if it’s a small business, employees being able to do their duties and not being absent is a risk any business takes.

Really sick of the internalised misogyny of just how many posters on MN say how awful it is that women apply for jobs when pregnant.

Urgh sorry for the rant. Thought we were making progress but these are such 1950s attitudes

@FlyingOink that's not true, I don't believe employers mind employing people do child hearing age but when the person is literally going to go off after six months or less and not do the job they've been recruited for immediately after being hired (so have contributed nothing to the company at that point as the company are probably at a loss or breaking even from the cost of training) that is compete pisstake and entirely different story to recruiting someone that 'might become pregnant'.

Well, the current system isn't working is it? Less than 2% of couples use shared parental leave. We need a different approach

What would you suggest?

It is for the woman and if appropriate her husband to decide.

@SpinsForGin men don't take a year off, women cannot have it both ways. I'm the US for example and many parts of Europe they get 12 weeks off and it's the norm - here women seem entitled to take a full year off. That's also a big part of the problem - and a choice, though one many feel entitled too which doesn't help the cause.

. If I was a pregnant woman I would not expect to tell an employer I'm current pregnant so cannot do the job I'm being interviewed for and I'll come back in 18 months. You're being utterly ridiculous.

@KimikosNightmare

Youranecdotal experience doesn't negate years and years of analysing this data!

It still doesn't erode my 35 years working experience.

Okay, if you say so 🤷🏼‍♀️

I guess I can stop collating and analysing labour market information for the whole of the uk covering every sector because of one persons experience of one sector. I'll tell my team to step down ......

Also agree someone pointing out only 2% of people share the maternity leave. From all the women I know it's because they have chosen to not go back and not really given the partner the option to do half the share - women want their cake and eating it when it comes to childbirth in many cases. They want to stay at home a year and be sole carer but bot have sacrifices in return.

@KimikosNightmare

Well, the current system isn't working is it? Less than 2% of couples use shared parental leave. We need a different approach

What would you suggest?

It is for the woman and if appropriate her husband to decide.

Hahaha yeah because that works so well. And if the father is one of the 40% of new fathers who isn't eligible? Or if the fathers company offers no enhanced benefits so essentially has to take unpaid leave?

The current system makes it very difficult for families to take SPL. Many just can't afford it. And that's before we start to address the organisational culture around men taking parental leave.

It's really not as simple as you make out.

It has nothing to do with their womanhood, but with a particular personal choice that happens to be only women can make.
Bloody hell, why bother chasing that rubbish with more utter rubbish like ‘Im not a misogynist’? Ok then, you just prefer to define your hatred of women in words of 2 syllables or less.

[quote bagheaven]@SpinsForGin men don't take a year off, women cannot have it both ways. I'm the US for example and many parts of Europe they get 12 weeks off and it's the norm - here women seem entitled to take a full year off. That's also a big part of the problem - and a choice, though one many feel entitled too which doesn't help the cause.

. If I was a pregnant woman I would not expect to tell an employer I'm current pregnant so cannot do the job I'm being interviewed for and I'll come back in 18 months. You're being utterly ridiculous. [/quote]
Fortunately the law disagrees with you.

Women are systematically discriminated and disadvantaged in the workplace.

We need protection against discrimination not because we want to have our cake and eat it but because women should be entitled to have a family and a career in the same way men can. Unfortunately men can't get pregnant or give birth so we need to ensure that women aren't discriminated because men can't do this.
Women need time to recover from giving birth and research shows that newborns benefit from a primary carer during the first year of their lives. This is why we have laws around maternity leave and pregnancy.
Societal expectations and structures mean that the person caring for the child is more than likely to end up being the woman. This is why we have laws around sex discrimination.

I'm a huge advocate of shared parental leave but, in the UK, the system just doesn't work. It needs an overhaul if we are to see more families use it.

[quote bagheaven]@FlyingOink that's not true, I don't believe employers mind employing people do child hearing age but when the person is literally going to go off after six months or less and not do the job they've been recruited for immediately after being hired (so have contributed nothing to the company at that point as the company are probably at a loss or breaking even from the cost of training) that is compete pisstake and entirely different story to recruiting someone that 'might become pregnant'.

[/quote]
What do you propose that women who have been made redundant / end of contract just as they get pregnant do? Do you suggest they don’t find work at all until after their baby has been born?

@bagheaven

Also agree someone pointing out only 2% of people share the maternity leave. From all the women I know it's because they have chosen to not go back and not really given the partner the option to do half the share - women want their cake and eating it when it comes to childbirth in many cases. They want to stay at home a year and be sole carer but bot have sacrifices in return.

Have you ever thought about why this might be? It's not always a case of women wanting their cake and eating it as you suggest .....

There are a whole load of financial and structural barriers at play here.

@SpinsForGin not from what I see in women I know, all of them have CHOSEN to step back/take extended time off and the ones that didn't are main breadwinners.

So before they were pregnant and starting families none of them seemed bothered about careers, it wasn't because they applied for jobs and got told no on the basis they were a woman.

I'm not saying sexism in the workplace doesn't exist but come on, you must see women get an attachment after children that makes them much less career focused and wanting to be with their children more so than men do. Or you can be in denial about it

[quote bagheaven]@FlyingOink that's not true, I don't believe employers mind employing people do child hearing age but when the person is literally going to go off after six months or less and not do the job they've been recruited for immediately after being hired (so have contributed nothing to the company at that point as the company are probably at a loss or breaking even from the cost of training) that is compete pisstake and entirely different story to recruiting someone that 'might become pregnant'.

[/quote]
How do you avoid someone going off on maternity after six months? You don't hire women. You don't think employers "mind" hiring women?

For companies that pay additional maternity pay over the government statutory maternity pay, you normally have to have completed a certain length of service to qualify.

I'm not saying sexism in the workplace doesn't exist but come on, you must see women get an attachment after children that makes them much less career focused and wanting to be with their children more so than men do. Or you can be in denial about it

Did you really pop up on Mumsnet to say mothers make worse employees?

@FlyingOink not at all what I said!

Twisting of words seems to be a MN thing - very strange.

I'm the US for example and many parts of Europe they get 12 weeks off and it's the norm - here women seem entitled to take a full year off.

The US has zero paid maternity leave by law. Companies may offer some pay as a negotiable benefit but there's none required by law. www.ilo.org/global/about-the-ilo/newsroom/news/WCMS_008009/lang--en/index.htm

women get an attachment after children that makes them much less career focused and wanting to be with their children more so than men do

@bagheaven does that make mothers better employees then?

Please explain what I've twisted

@FlyingOink no it just means often women like and enjoy taking extended parental leave after children. There's nothing wrong with that - but what is wrong is expecting others including an employer to fund it beyond a certain point (certainly up to a year!)

@FlyingOink when people have children they should financially plan for the time they need to take out to care for them.

not from what I see in women I know, all of them have CHOSEN to step back/take extended time off and the ones that didn't are main breadwinners

I research women's career development for a living. Over the years I've spoken to 100's of women and gathered data from 1000's more.
Some women do close to step back after children BUT it's not always as simple as it seems. As you point out, those that don't are the breadwinner. Often the choice to have one person step back is financial and women are more likely to earn less than their male partners due to age differences ( women tend to be younger) and the sectors they work in - which is a whole other discussion.
We also can't discount social expectations around childcare. Society 'tells' us from a young age that women should be the primary carers. We are starting to see a shift but it's a slow process. There's also the issue of organisational culture and how well received men asking to work flexibly, part time etc is in certain organisations and sectors. We've a long way to go in this respect.

So before they were pregnant and starting families none of them seemed bothered about careers, it wasn't because they applied for jobs and got told no on the basis they were a woman

The experiences of your friends are not representative of all women. .

I'm not saying sexism in the workplace doesn't exist but come on, you must see women get an attachment after children that makes them much less career focused and wanting to be with their children more so than men do. Or you can be in denial about it

You're making some VERY sweeping generalisations and assumptions here. I mean, come on..... it's 2022. Have we not moved on from this bullshit yet? The idea that women only want to be with their babies and men go out to work is just so outdated.
Some women become less career focussed after children but many don't. We need to move on from these ridiculous stereotypes.

I guess I can stop collating and analysing labour market information for the whole of the uk covering every sector because of one persons experience of one sector. I'll tell my team to step down ......

What you could do is stop airily waiving your hands around telling me the next time one of my qualified solicitors in a very specialised niche sector goes on maternity leave that I can just hire a temporary, short term replacement. Because I'm telling you they don't exist. There is a shortage- the idea that for this type of work there's a pool flitting around from temporary post to temporary post is absurd. What is more likely to happen is I'll try to poach a permanent member of staff from another firm ; which we did when 4 out of 12 were on maternity leave at one point.

I don't know who you are, who your team is or who you are collating this information for. I can tell you your research is no practical use whatsoever for my dealing with maternity leave.

Oh and btw at the end of last year we offered a senior post to someone who told us during her second interview that she was unexpectedly pregnant. And no of course we didn't ask - she thought it was fair to tell us. But of course that probably never happens either according to you.

@SpinsForGin it's not stereotypes though it's reality. The reason I know this is because I once posted on this very forum to explain I want 50/50 parenting if I decide to have kids and the thread went down like a lead balloon with me being told I am not fit to be a parent basically for purely wanting a 50/59 parenting structure!

. Someone must have made those comments? I assume these are the same people (women too) integrated within society.

[quote bagheaven]@FlyingOink no it just means often women like and enjoy taking extended parental leave after children. There's nothing wrong with that - but what is wrong is expecting others including an employer to fund it beyond a certain point (certainly up to a year!) [/quote]
That's not what you said though. You stated, explicitly, that women with children are less career focused. I'm not sure how you can spin that into meaning anything other than the fact you think they're less career focused. Because those were your words.

I'm not saying sexism in the workplace doesn't exist but come on suggests you feel sympathy for those who are sexist in the workplace. Do you think women benefit from people believing women with children are less focused on the job?

[quote bagheaven]@FlyingOink when people have children they should financially plan for the time they need to take out to care for them. [/quote]
Should people plan for long term illness, or just for having kids?

Should we give up on national insurance, unemployment benefits and the NHS and demand everyone makes their own provision? If you would like this to happen I suggest you research outcomes for women in countries where this is the case.

@KimikosNightmare

I guess I can stop collating and analysing labour market information for the whole of the uk covering every sector because of one persons experience of one sector. I'll tell my team to step down ......

What you could do is stop airily waiving your hands around telling me the next time one of my qualified solicitors in a very specialised niche sector goes on maternity leave that I can just hire a temporary, short term replacement. Because I'm telling you they don't exist. There is a shortage- the idea that for this type of work there's a pool flitting around from temporary post to temporary post is absurd. What is more likely to happen is I'll try to poach a permanent member of staff from another firm ; which we did when 4 out of 12 were on maternity leave at one point.

I don't know who you are, who your team is or who you are collating this information for. I can tell you your research is no practical use whatsoever for my dealing with maternity leave.

Oh and btw at the end of last year we offered a senior post to someone who told us during her second interview that she was unexpectedly pregnant. And no of course we didn't ask - she thought it was fair to tell us. But of course that probably never happens either according to you.

I've never said that it wasn't difficult and challenging for some sectors. I was simply responding to your assumptions that temporary/fixed term contracts aren't the norm.

They might not be in your sector but they are in many, many others. YOUR sector is not representative of the whole labour market.

The data me and my team collect and analyse is used nationally to support recruiters and career development professionals - so who knows, it might come in useful one day?