Fucking double standards of women on maternity leave

[ShirleyPhallus]

This is sort of a TAAT but I’ve seen many of these recently

Really sick of the threads on here about maternity leave and how women shouldn’t go for jobs if they are newly pregnant as it could leave a business in the lurch to recruit their replacement. While I have some sympathy if it’s a small business, employees being able to do their duties and not being absent is a risk any business takes.

Really sick of the internalised misogyny of just how many posters on MN say how awful it is that women apply for jobs when pregnant.

Urgh sorry for the rant. Thought we were making progress but these are such 1950s attitudes

@Inclinedtochatter presumably this boss is finding things tough presently.

There is a real recruitment crisis rn which is largely wage driven after a decade plus of wage stagnation. Employers are going to have to dig a little deeper. Good.

Surely society as a whole benefits from there being more new humans who will one day pay tax to fund our retirement and social care, so society as a whole could help make that happen - not just the pregnant women or their employers.

Well yeah I mean humanity dying out= slim pickings for any business.

Plus, it's just what humans do. They get sick, they get pregnant, they die. Sucks.

Have to say I'm prepared to work collaboratively with a boss on these and all other issues just as soon as I get a boss's pay.

I told my boss I was pregnant and he replied “FFS” not under his breath, just quite openly.

My board then told / mansplained/ blatantly patronised me for months that I would need longer than I had planned for leave.

I was back at seven weeks. Best for our family not saying others should do it.

It’s still completely shit navigating pregnancy and work!

@Feliana

Well yeah I mean humanity dying out= slim pickings for any business.

Plus, it's just what humans do. They get sick, they get pregnant, they die. Sucks.

Have to say I'm prepared to work collaboratively with a boss on these and all other issues just as soon as I get a boss's pay.

Presumably you’re happy for all the small female-owned, struggling new businesses to go under, then? That’ll stick it to The Man - all those hairdressers and independent shops and small cleaning companies - fuck them, right? And not to mention all the not-for-profits, social enterprises and small charities.

And of course you’re happy for women of childbearing age to continue to suffer discrimination?

Fully agree OP.
There also seems to be a weird attitude among a lot of posters that you can accurately pick a date that you will get pregnant and your life should work around that.

Can't employers - including small businesses - claim nearly all of, or even over, the SMP from HMRC? I know there is still the disruption but financially?

@Soontobe60

Totally in agreement OP. Anyone who is an employer should have plans in place for having a pregnant employee. Would these same complainers say the same about a disabled job applicant where an employer may have to spend money making reasonable adjustments, or a job applicant who has cancer?

Do you know the unemployment rates for people with visible disabilities?

And how many people who tell recruiters they have cancer get hired?

The government can't expect companies to shoulder the financial burden and then act surprised when businesses don't hire women or don't hire people with disabilities.

As I said upthread, national insurance should cover 100% of normal pay. Statutory maternity pay and statutory sick pay are useless - you can either pay your bills or you can't - and on statutory pay you can't.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow I think there's a government you can address your concerns to.

Good luck.

[quote Feliana]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow I think there's a government you can address your concerns to.

Good luck.[/quote]
Snarky, but if she then decides to hire men instead then women lose out. And try proving sex discrimination at interview. It's very difficult.

I'm not sure why you think something as important as maternity pay should be the responsibility of a salon owner or pub landlady or whoever anyway. Sounds like the American mess with healthcare. Can't leave your job because otherwise you have no cover.

That thread was the worst. I wasn't surprised but it did make me want to throw up. I have to stay out of them or I would get banned.

Some of the dripping hatred for women was so obvious. And that one woman who opened up about TTC for years with no luck and multiple people accused her of 'pulling that trick on her employers' AND MN allowed it!

I think the answer is to give women blanket enhanced pay at any stage of pregnancy when starting any role, the cost of which is covered by the government and perhaps for small businesses a small grant given to cover costs

I completely agree with this.

I think it's appalling that women either have to stay put or risk moving into a role where they have no idea what the maternity pay will be and no way of asking prior to accepting a role without pretty much guaranteeing they'll be turned down.

I think a better blanket cover as a minimum for every job (supported by govt) would be a great start. Eg - even 12 weeks at 90% would at least give women knowledge of the minimum they'd be looking at in a new role.

Hang on that post referred to enhanced pay during pregnancy not maternity.

So sad to hear so many views and stress, from here from many perspectives, including small/big employers and the impact on colleagues.

But I’m more reflecting on the mental toll here and the impact on the pregnant mum - and partner - that can often cause mental damage years and years later. You need a healthy mental strategy to deal with it.

Having had 4 children in a massive oil company 16+ years ago, I’ve encountered policy ahead of its time, and yet so much bias/harassment in reality - yes, even in a massive corporate. I was really (naively) hoping it had gone away. I was in part of the team writing the global maternity policy, helped introduce a workplace nursery, had flex working/career breaks - as has my partner and played a massive home role. But I still was made redundant twice whilst pregnant from my job, appealed and won. The stress contributed to six miscarriages over time - all kept private, which is far more secretly common than we know. I envied the brave, self assured women who took on top jobs knowing they were pregnant and succeeded - they never blamed themselves - be them now, it is possible.

Don’t put up with it and “it’s never your fault”. I feel sad that what should have been the most special time in my life, when we should be protected the most, was often marred by the most workplace bullying and stress.

Some of it was so bad it’s funny: one of the business CEOs saying I looked ‘like a sumo wrestler’ and introduced me to an audience of 150 people as “the one who’s taken the most maternity leaves”. A female HRVP told me, as I announced my pregnancy at 14weeks, “congratulations, in that case I need to remove you from your job”, confirming it in an email.

It takes more than grit to take this. The damage to my mental health has had very long term consequences, largely because I blamed myself for not being strong enough.

I now coach younger women entering the work space largely to help them calmly ask for what they need.

I’m very proud what I’ve coped with, and in what my daughters and son are taking from in in their own life and career choices. The civil service have so far been incredible - no wonder they've won National awards for how they treat/develop women. Some others I help have already encountered horrendous sexist comments in a large Pharma - thankfully one has just resigned and is moving to a great new role.

Let’s hope the next one gives her great inspiration and self belief.

We have to live and breathe the change, it takes guts and there are good ways to have the conversations.

I wish anyone in this journey the best, I’d love to help change this.

I always feel really torn by this. While maternity leaves are important, I also have never felt like all jobs are the same in terms of the commitment required. My husband worked for a while in a job like that - he did not take parental leave when we had a newborn when he was in that job, though he took 8 months with one of our older ones.

@ShirleyPhallus

Bollocks. It's not a misogynistic issue at all, but one of employers wanting employees they can count on to reliably come in to work. Yeah I know, the utter cheek.

Whatever your views on how long mat leave should be, whether it should be paid, whether the original job should be protected, whether they should accrue paid leave (utter madness IMO), one just can't eny the detrimental effect ML has on a business. To say otherwise is at best cognitive dissonance, and at worst utter selfishness and psychopathy.

@Inclinedtochatter

I was talking to a lady recently who said her boss won't employ a woman 'with a working womb'!!!

Some might call this misogyny, but it's just common sense. Why put yourself in a position where you are likely to face problems, when you could just as well employ someone without a working womb?

@BellatricksStrange some might call it misogyny... because that's what it is. Only in the mind of someone who thinks women are lesser would this be seen as "common sense".

If any man in this world wants a family, then women have to do the leg work. If anyone in this world wants there to be future generations then women have to do the leg work. Only someone utterly selfish or psychopathic would seek to blame and penalise women for that inescapable aspect of biology.

[quote BellatricksStrange]@ShirleyPhallus

Bollocks. It's not a misogynistic issue at all, but one of employers wanting employees they can count on to reliably come in to work. Yeah I know, the utter cheek.

Whatever your views on how long mat leave should be, whether it should be paid, whether the original job should be protected, whether they should accrue paid leave (utter madness IMO), one just can't eny the detrimental effect ML has on a business. To say otherwise is at best cognitive dissonance, and at worst utter selfishness and psychopathy.[/quote]
Actually, it probably won't be detrimental as businesses simply have to cope with maternity leave - they have no choice. Some are better placed than others but the bottom line is that whether graciously and enthusiastically or ungraciuosly and grudgingly a coping solution will be found.

In my experience my sector and the other professional sectors I work with generally deal with maternity leave very well. This is from a mixture at one end of having no choice and gritting teeth to the other end of not wanting to lose employees and presenting as an attractive employer. In my sector most employers offer better than the SMP. Employees who don't return to work after maternity leave have to repay the enhanced element. I've only had one employee in my department who took the enhanced pay and didn't come back. We didn't ask her to repay it as she had personal reasons for not coming back to work at all; had she gone to a competitor we would have.

In my working life I personally am not aware of anyone being made redundant due to pregnancy. I expect that comment will be met with the usual claims of "don't believe you/ anecdote isn't data" but it's true. Realistically even if an employer wanted to get rid of a pregnant employee the penalties if an employee goes to a tribunal and the loss of reputation aren't worth it.

But it would be nice, if occasionally, it could be recognised that dealing with maternity leave often isn't easy ; that there isn't a pool of qualified and experienced temps who want a short term contract and that the workload of those not on maternity leave will increase.

Anyone who is an employer should have plans in place for having a pregnant employee. Would these same complainers say the same about a disabled job applicant where an employer may have to spend money making reasonable adjustments, or a job applicant who has cancer?

This comment is exactly the sort of "only on MN/ who gives a toss about employers" attitude I'm referring to.

What do you suggest? Every time an employer hires a woman under 50 they hire a spare employee just in case?

The comparison with an employee with a disability just doesn't stand up. An employer knows from the outset what extra accommodations have to be made and are likely to be in place long term. The same applies if the disability presents during the employment- planning for that is far easier. And in that situation an employer can discuss the employee's situation, what is the prognosis , what do they need. An employer can't have that conversation with a pregnant employee. An employee might be on maternity leave for between 26 to 52 weeks plus accrued holiday and doesn't have to commit to coming back or not coming back until the final few weeks.

I'm not going to comment on the "a job applicant who has cancer" part as it's such a bizarre, not on point comment.

Completely agree. I lost my job and found out 2 weeks later I was pregnant. What was I supposed to do? Not work for 8 months and incur debt or have to move?
This was my much wanted rainbow baby!
My new employer were fantastic when I told them and so thrilled for me. I didn’t qualify for mat leave anyway.

@BraveMumOf4Explorers thank you for paving the way for other women in your company. What an amazing thing to do.
So sorry to hear you had such bad experiences yourself and it took such a toll on you. You can be very proud of yourself of all you have achieved.

I made a post a while back re wanting a promotion and wishing to have my mat leave. A lot of responses were so great and supportive but there were so so many depressing 1950s views. People telling me I cannot have my cake and eat it, cannot expect to have a career and kids, you’ve made your bed now lie in it 🤣
I got the promotion and sure as hell I’ll make my career work while looking after my two children very well.
I briefly seen that new post, I must take a look

Honestly looking at it as a mum (who went back after 4 months) and as a working woman. I think maternity leave is to long in this country, a balance could be found at say 6 months leave split 50:50 between parents so no single employers is expected to take a years hit of losing staff.

@vickyc90

Honestly looking at it as a mum (who went back after 4 months) and as a working woman. I think maternity leave is to long in this country, a balance could be found at say 6 months leave split 50:50 between parents so no single employers is expected to take a years hit of losing staff.

Yes, because when having a baby, my first concern was my employer's wellbeing over my baby...

Has anyone here ever been in a position of responsibility or managing a team? I have, and in one instance and for a whole year one of my team was signed off suffering from an autoimmune disease. Of course none of us resented her - it was what it was -, but neither was our workload reduced to reflect her absence and we still had to see the project to its conclusion, minus our convalescing team member.
If you cannot work someone else must pick up the slack, so if you are expecting chest bumping and high-fives at the announcement of an extended absence from work, you may be surprised.

And funnily enough, an employer has a duty to the company, not your offspring.

I am pleased the UK has laws in place to protect pregnant women but I laughed at the 'women are supplying future generations point.'
I've never met a woman who had a baby as a civic duty. Imagine if it ever became a requirement!
The old USSR gave medals to prodigious mums i think.